Capitalism vs. Socialism: What’s the Difference?
Recently, in our world of political ideas, words like Socialist and Fascist have made a resurgent comeback. Some people hurl them at domestic opponents and foreign enemies alike in order to rouse emotional responses. Others seek to redefine them to make them more avoidable or even acceptable, and still others seek to make them taboo in order to avoid discussion altogether. Many everyday voters believe such terms to be either cloudy artifacts of intellectual philosophy or simple labels for people they don’t like.
The fact is that modern socio-economic systems are very definite and can be explained in a way that is very understandable. That is the goal of this article. In it, I will explore what the terms Capitalism and Socialism actually mean. I will try to be as objective as possible, because both systems have strengths and weakness, but I hope you will agree with me in the end that one is preferable to the other. These socio-economic systems can be explained simply and accurately, but we need to define a few terms.
The Nature of Wealth
The production of each worker in a society can be enumerated in the basic wealth unit of that society; US dollars in modern America, precious metals like gold and silver in ages past, or even agricultural units such as the koku of feudal Japan, which was the amount of rice one warrior consumed in one year. The full sum of this production is an individual’s Wealth. This Wealth can be divided into two portions. Each worker uses one portion of his (or her) produced Wealth to provide the necessities of survival and basic comfort for himself and his dependents. This portion is called Maintenance. The other portion is called Capital, and it is this portion that enables civilization. Capital is the excess wealth an individual produces beyond his own needs and is distributed to the greater economy for a variety of purposes to include purchasing luxuries or status symbols, investing to create new sources of Wealth, providing for the common defense, and supporting public services, charity and savings. The division between these two portions is called the Subsistence Line.
Every socio-economic system can be defined by who decides where the Subsistence Line is located and how Capital is distributed. In order to do this, we must define the possible decision authorities. There are only two in the systems discussed here. As has already been described, the worker is anyone who produces Wealth. The term ‘worker’ in this context should not be confused with the often described ‘working class’. Classes are artificial constructs based on how much Capital groups of individuals produce. For example, the working class describes individuals who typically produce just enough Wealth to get them slightly over the Subsistence Line. The poor reside below the Line, the middle class well above and the Wealth production of the rich is almost all Capital. All of them are workers in this definition. The other possible decision authority is the State, which is synonymous with the political elite. This can include any individual or group that has that capacity to make policy at a national level. A dictator, a hereditary or selected oligarchy, or elected officials are among the persons who can embody the State. How such persons come into power defines the political system of a society which also plays into the definition of its socio-economic system.
The relationship between the workers and the State, how Wealth is distributed in a society and how the political elite are empowered can describe any socio-economic system. For example, one of the oldest socio-economic systems is Despotism. Despotism is a system that arises in a society with no understanding or respect for the Rule of Law, and in which one person, the Despot, is able to make policy by the exertion or threat of force on which he has a monopoly. In this way, the Despot is free to choose the location of the Subsistence Line for his subjects and distribute their Capital as he sees fit. If he sets the Subsistence Line way too low, his subjects will starve and either die off or rebel. If he sets it just a little too low, they will suffer from malnutrition and squalor and become less productive and more restive. However, if he sets it too high he will have less Capital to invest in his own security. Additionally, his subjects may choose to voluntarily lower their own Subsistence Line, thereby creating a source of Capital under their control which they may invest in things that weaken the Despot’s power, such as weapons or foreign assistance. Luckily, Despotism has long since fallen out of style in the modern developed world. Democratic traditions and a respect for the Rule of Law (which took modern civilization centuries to develop) have elevated two socio-economic systems to the forefront of modern ideas: Capitalism and Socialism.
The Case for Capitalism
In a Capitalist society, the Subsistence Line is set by popular opinion and each individual is free to define it as he sees fit. If an individual feels that a large enough residence to provide private living space for each member of his family, a fulfilling quantity of quality food and entertainment and one car for each adult are the necessities of life, than the Wealth necessary to procure these things lie below his Subsistence Line. All additional Wealth is Capital that the individual chooses how to reinvest. He may choose to purchase unnecessary luxuries, invest in status symbols or education to advance his career, save for retirement or to start a business, or give it to his favorite charity. In a Capitalist society each individual is considered to own the Wealth they produce, and the State exists to guarantee their Rights. The central Right that all others derive from in a Capitalist society is the Right to property.
A Capitalist society generally requires a Constitutional Republic to operate, and it is essentially inseparable from the concept of the Free Market. A basic definition of the Free Market is that prices for goods and services are determined solely by supply and demand. Because individuals are responsible for reinvesting their Capital they will generally purchase goods and services at the best possible price. A Capitalist believes that the complex and unpredictable nature of a full economic system will grow and remain stable due to this bottom-up style of planning. Major changes to Capital distribution will only take place when a large number of people believe it to be in their best interest and will only last as long as they remain profitable. The Constitutional Republic is necessary because the State will naturally attempt to increase its own influence. The Constitution serves to chain the State down within the limits of the Law and checks and balances must be used to prevent the political elite from circumventing the Constitution.
Criticisms of Capitalism
There are two primary criticisms of the Capitalist system. The first is based on the extremes of the economic classes. The critics point out that the wealthiest classes, who have much more Capital than most, are able to influence society disproportionately by the way they choose to distribute that Capital. They conclude that since each individual acts to advance their own interests, these actions are probably detrimental to some other individual or group in society, and therefore the rich shall abuse the poor and the working classes whom no one has a motivation to protect. The poor, who reside below the Subsistence Line, will never have Capital to invest in their own interest and will therefore never have the opportunity to advance.
The second criticism of Capitalism states that faith in the Free Market is erroneous. While generally accepting the theory of supply and demand, the critics believe that the people as a mass are capable of being panicked or defrauded by a variety of nefarious entities, including foreign governments, plotting corporations, scapegoat populations and demagogues. These critics believe that a central governing body, the State, must be entrusted with the responsibility and empowered with the resources to guide and protect the population from these corrupting influences, which brings us the other dominant modern socio-economic system – Socialism.
The Socialist State
In a Socialist society, the State, embodied by the political elite, determines how much of an individual’s produced Wealth is Capital. It then takes this Capital from the workers and decides how to distribute it in order to meet the needs of the nation and of the interests that maintain the State’s power. What differentiates a Socialist system from the Despotic system earlier used as an example is the source of the State’s power. It is true that the State’s ultimate power still lies in the application of force. If a worker fails to deliver his Capital to the state, he will be fined and eventually arrested. If he resists arrest, he will be captured or killed. However, a Socialist State rarely requires the full use of this force when compared to a Despotic system, because the State relies on its society’s respect for the Rule of Law. The State uses the Law, as it was intended or not, to justify the use of force. Due to their respect for the Rule of Law, the people cooperate as long as the powers and actions of the State remain tolerable.
The typical political systems that support a Socialist socio-economic system are Democracy and Selected Oligarchy. While Democracy is not completely necessary, it is often the political system of a Socialist society because Democratic traditions and the Rule of Law usually develop together in a symbiotic relationship, and as stated previously, the Rule of Law is necessary for a Socialist society. Democracy, or majority rule, also serves to promote Socialism as it is much simpler to convince large groups to vote away theirs’ and others’ property rights than to freely invest their Capital in a cause.
Divisions in Socialism
There are two broad styles of Socialism – Popular (Marxism) and National (Fascism) – that are defined by the priorities the State follows when distributing Capital. If the State’s primary goal is to provide for the economic and social security of the workers it is a Popular Socialist State. In a Democracy, the Popular Socialist State derives its power mainly by promising the distribution of Wealth to several large, dissatisfied political or social minority groups which together make a majority. A National Socialist State invests the majority of its Capital in the security and aggrandizement of the State itself. In a Democracy, the National Socialist State derives much of its power by encouraging the population to identify as part of the State so that individuals take pride in the State’s accomplishments (scientific, cultural or political) whatever their own economic status. In this way, dissent against the State becomes dissent against the Nation. Other common elements of National Socialism are continuous war and conquest as well as the identification of a scapegoat population.
Criticisms of Socialism
There are three primary criticisms leveled against Socialism. The first and simplest is that the State is incapable of effectively managing large and complex structures like a national economy. After all, the State is made up of error-prone individuals. Critics believe that any action the State takes (price fixing, tampering with the monetary unit, foreign intervention, etc.) will inevitably cause unintended side effects or “blowback”. To correct this blowback, the State will intervene further creating additional unexpected blowback, and in this way the problem will eventually become unmanageable.
The second criticism asserts that because individuals are deprived of their Capital and because they believe the State will care for them if they fail, individuals have no incentive to produce more than they need for their own Maintenance. The State’s source of Capital will therefore dry up, and it will be forced to lower the Subsistence Line to artificially produce more Capital. Eventually, it will not be able to fulfill the promises it has made to the populous or the commitments of its Empire.
The critics’ final point is that as the State develops more power to distribute Wealth, it becomes a greater target of manipulation. Powerful individuals, special interest groups and even foreign governments will lobby for their share of the loot. The critics believe that the more loot that is at stake the more determined these interests will be to influence the State.
The Current Condition of the American System and the Way Forward
Most Americans recognize that a battle of socio-economic philosophies exists in our nation today. However, most also mistakenly believe that this battle is between Capitalism and Socialism, using whatever words they choose for the concepts I have previously elucidated. This is not the case. Free Market Capitalism has been swiftly eroded by manipulations and outright negligence of our Nation’s Laws and Constitution over the last century. The 16th Amendment of 1913 which paved the way for the Federal Income Tax determined that the State had the right to deprive individuals of their property – their Capital. The establishment of the Fed and of dozens of other “regulatory” institutions and the redistribution of vast sums of Wealth have made the State extremely powerful. The United States of America is ruled today by a Socialist State.
The debate now in our two-party system is between Popular Socialism – the Democrats – and National Socialism – the Republicans. Both systems are doomed to failure as is made obvious by the failures of Socialism in the past. It is vital that the citizens of this nation seek to educate themselves on the founding principles of our Constitution and be wary of lessons they are taught on broadcast television or mass newspapers. The State’s interest lies in convincing the citizenry that the Free Market is the cause of internal failures and not its own misguided attempts at intervention. The State’s interest also lies in convincing the citizenry that foreign enemies exist for no avoidable reason rather than due to its own misguided attempts at intervention overseas.
No system is perfect. The criticisms of Capitalism are valid. However, a Capitalist system lays the onus of morality on the individual by how he chooses to invest his Capital. A Socialist system deprives the individual of all responsibility. Moreover, it is intrinsically immoral because it is based on the forced deprivation of individuals’ property. The way forward for America lies in the Founding Fathers wise faith in Free Market Capitalism and the way to destruction lies in the dangerous lure of Socialism.
You DO see the pyramid scheme symbol on the back of the USA one dollar bill, right? You DO see the servitude infestation in capitalism, right? And do you see the “pay up or lose your wellbeing” Chicago mob-like felony extortion widespread within capitalism? Do you see the “join or starve” felony extortion done to the 18 year olds… by this ugly competer’s church called capitalism? See how forcing competer’s religions onto 18 year olds… kills membership in the cooperator’s church (Christianity/socialism)?? Do you understand that AmWay (American Way) (New World Order) got “the exclusive” (legal tender) on the TYPE of survival coupons (money) accepted in supply depots (stores) and leverages 18 years olds into the organization via that felony activity as well? Do you understand how farmyard pyramids work… from your childhood?? Remember?? Upper 1/3 are “heads in the clouds” while the kids on the bottom ALWAYS GET HURT from the weight of the world’s knees in their backs? Still with me? Do you see anything illegal, immoral, or just plain sick… in any of this pyramid scheme’s activities? Anyone home???
Us American Christian socialists are still patiently awaiting the natural fall of the pyramid-o-servitude, or the busting of the free marketeers felony… by the USA Dept of Justice. Us Christians are VERY CLOSE to issuing a cease and desist order until the servitude and inequality goes away… which means it turns into a commune. Commune is a word we LOVE when used in the word “community”… but its one the caps HATE when used in the term “commune-ism”. Go fig. PROGRAMMED!!
Time to level the felony pyramid scheme called capitalism. Abolish economies and ownershipism worldwide, and hurry. Economies just cause rat-racing, and rat-racing causes felony pyramiding. BUST IT, America! Look to the USA military supply/survival system… for socialism and morals done right. Equal, owner-less, money-less, bill-less, timecard-less, and concerned with growth of value-criteria OTHER THAN money-value. There are MANY measurement criteria of “value”… not just dollars. Try morals, efficiency, discrimination-levels, repairability, etc etc. Economies are cancerous tumors, and to cheer for their growth… is just insane. Profiting causes inflation, so if you caps LIKE inflation, and if you LIKE a terrible time in afterlife when you meet the planet’s ORIGINAL OWNER before caps tried to squat it all with ownershipism, then keep it up with the felony pyramiding. I dare you. While us Christians are finally bulldozing that pyramid scheme back to level, lets make servitude and “join or starve” illegal in the USA, and lets level the architecture seen in USA courtrooms, too. Right now, USA courtrooms are church simulators or “fear chambers”, by special design. Sick.
Isn’t enlightenment FUN!!!???
Let me tell us all the story of a unique “bridge”…
Capitalism… is a SINGLE pyramid scheme or company. It is ONE GIANT “running across the backs of lessers”-way of forsakedly racing across a ravine-o-death to “set for life land”-business. Its a see-no-evil, hear-no-evil, monkey-see, monkey-do rat-racing-for-greenstamps Free Mason/Illuminati SHAM… that capitalists are bought-into… a system whose inventors are long ago dead. BUT, we STILL need to escape this killing-machine thing, lest it destroy us. Some might call it a self-feeding machine, too. Its a “railroading”… a “tradition” of competing instead-of cooperating… a GOUGING MACHINE… or maybe… a harvester or mower.
Either way, it feeds enjoyment addictions within the American shoppers. There’s enjoyment junkies everywhere here in the USA! Meats, sweets, motorsports, fashion, food, sex, drugs, being important, etc.
Aside from THAT problem, I went walking in the pastures of the giant shared farm called Earth, and I came-across a group of CHILDREN… who had built a “bridge” or “pyramid”… across a fatal-drop-grade ravine or ditch. This bridge… was made ENTIRELY of children, and NOTHING ELSE!
Near the entry to the deathbridge, there was this HUGE flashing neon arrow… saying “THIS WAY to SET FOR LIFE!” In fact there were THOUSANDS of these neon arrows… pointing the way. (via media cock’n'bull, and via everyone following LIFE MAGAZINE rules for life… instead of Bible policies and rules.) Instead of herdfully-following these arrows, I took one apart so I could determine what made it point.
Kids (lessers/minorities) were falling off-of the bottom of this bridge of children… TO THEIR DEATHS… at a rate that was best described as ATROCIOUS! For every child that managed-to “successfully” run-across-to “set for life land”… 5000 children fell to their death from the bottom of the bridge. They were screaming bloody murder as they descended… but nobody “herd” them.
Now, lets look at the CENTER area of the bridge. At the center of the bridge… it is a back-stabbing and cronyism DEMENTATION!! There is a “tower” of “controllers” (a group of set-for-lifes)… who are helping SOME children safely cross to set4lifeville, and denying others from getting there… and doing it… based-upon ANY DAMNED CRITERIA THEY FEEL LIKE USING! Cronyism. This was the pyramid… the tower of power… at the center of the bridge-o-children across the ravine-o-death.
As a farm mom… I said HOLY MOTHER-OF-GOD! WHAT HAVE YOU DEMENTED CHILDREN BUILT!! In another way of looking at it all… it was bullies in the church playground… who have grabbed-up the ENTIRE platter of sloppy joes… and are now making other children “service them” in order to get a tiny taste of sloppy joe!!!
DISGUSTING! DEMENTED! Is anyone seeing this?? Welcome to the United States of disgustingness. You make me sick, capitalists. Fix your economy system NOW… by abolishing/outlawing economies WORLD WIDE! Do it RIGHT NOW… so that this never happens again. There’s nobody to lynch… just shut down the servitude festival before God comes back and spanks you all severely. Wake up, caps!!
Larry “Wingnut” Wendlandt
MaStars - Mothers Against Stuff That Ain’t Right
(anti-capitalism-ists)
Bessemer MI USA
… interesting. I don’t think a reasonable debate is going to be possible here, but what the heck, I’ll give it a try.
You seem to be a fan of Communism. I considered discussing Communism in the article, but decided that it was irrelevant. Communism is the eventual goal of Marxist theory. Marxists believe that a Popular Socialist State can evolve into a true Communist State in which the political elite is eliminated and the workers control the distribution of Capital collectively.
Communism, of course, is pure fantasy. It is impossible for complex, national systems to be managed by a commune. The only political system it could possibly exist with is a Full Non-Partisan Democracy, in which every policy issue is decided by a leaderless majority vote and that would obviously result in chaos. If such a system could somehow come into being it would last only until a board or committee was established to manage some aspect of government as would inevitably happen. At that point, a political elite is born and will seek to gather more and more influence until they replace the commune as the State. Go read George Orwell’s Animal Farm. The pigs will take control. So Communism is a pipe dream. The closest you can get is Popular Socialism.
You wrote about servitude. Servitude is being forced to work and forfeit what you produce to someone with power over you. In a Capitalist system, while there will be those who live below the poverty line, no one is a servant. A worker is compensated in Wealth for any work he does at a wage determined by the impartial demands of a Free Market. In a Popular Socialist system workers are forced - ultimately at the barrel of a gun - to surrender their Wealth to the State. In most places in America today, working and middle class workers essentially work for the State three to six months out of the year, and have no choice in the matter other than to stop working altogether. This is servitude.
As for “abolishing economies and ownershipism”, this is yet another fantasy. You may as well abolish emotions or relationships. Economy is just the word we use to describe the contractual interactions between humans. If one person makes a promise to another in return for another promise, an economy is born. It is how people deal with one another. “Ownershipism” is equally impossible to abolish. Being the owner of something just means that you get to decide how it is used or distributed. If no one had the decision authority to use or distribute goods and services, those goods and services could never be used or distributed.
As for the creepy bridge you described, there will always be someone at the center of the bridge. It may be Capitalists choosing how to reinvest their Capital for their own benefit or it may be a Socialist political elite trying vainly to intervene in the myriad of personal interactions that create the economy. And as long as there are people, the bridge will exist. If it’s torn down, everyone will fall into misery, but the bridge will eventually be rebuilt as people seek to create order amongst themselves.
Capitalism at least allows each individual in the bridge to have some control over their own lives. Even if poor, they possess the dignity of freedom. They will never be slaves to the State. That is the message of liberty. I believe that God endowed us with Free Will and He wants us to exercise it, not surrender it to the State.
Most of the discourse not put forth by Nobel laureate economists does not delve into the rigor of each system. What most people mean when they call someone a socialist or a capitalist is a small move somewhere between real socialism and real capitalism. Even countries that are frequently called socialist aren’t nearly so; take Sweden - they have a heavy tax burden and a large array of entitlements, but the means of production are still privately held for the most part (albeit all by the Nokia Group - ha!).
The more populated, and smaller, the world gets, the more moderate we become - the more we melt into a mean value of our ideology.
Hi Chance… thanks for the reply!
… interesting.
Thanks. Your initial post was so, as well.
I don’t think a reasonable debate is going to be possible here, but what the heck, I’ll give it a try.
I don’t see why not. And then there’s the differing opinions of what the word “reasonable” means, right? Reasonable in WHO’s opinion, eh?
You seem to be a fan of Communism.
One COULD say that, but just like the word “reasonable” (and ‘professional’ and ‘appropriate’ too), the term and phenomenon called “communism” comes in a myriad of flavors. I love communes, community, communion, and communication. I’m a hippy in many ways. I’m a power Christian potlucker and barnraiser. I believe in the story of “Stone Soup”. I think the more correct term and phenomenon… is “communalist”. I believe societies should be run like church playgrounds. Everyone gets equal wellbeing no matter what, and bullies and hoarders are severely jailed (in hug’n'teach jails) until they learn that fairness is a strict law in New America. But we’re venturing into new subjects here. I mainly work on showing people how disgusting capitalism is, and how it needs to stop before it kills all of us. The design of better, more equal, less-discriminatory supply/survival systems… might be best left to folks who are trained-in inventory management. But I do have a better idea, and its based upon military supply/survival systems, as well as upon the best running system ever devised… the USA public library system. Essentially, just like the military, the strife is to leave NO TROOP, no matter where they are on the planet… with a shortage or outage of basic survival needs (food, cover, tools, medical). The USA military never wants to leave a member of “team”… short on survival supplies (wellbeing). My system simply extends that to be “Team Earth” and it includes all living things, great and small, including plants and critters. In my system, we can only eat dead-of-old-age meats, and we can no longer kill plant or animal. We must wait for “fruits” to “fall” as the season’s name tells us. We can also no longer “pick” or “crop” fruits, nuts, grains. Instead, we catch them in “fall nets” and bring the people to the orchards and groves, and not truck the perfectly vine e-ripened fruits. Its a long story. How’s your patience?
I considered discussing Communism in the article, but decided that it was irrelevant. Communism is the eventual goal of Marxist theory. Marxists believe that a Popular Socialist State can evolve into a true Communist State in which the political elite is eliminated and the workers control the distribution of Capital collectively.
That’s but one flavor of things. Just change your idea of “state” to “Team World” and I think things still paint-up ok. It all depends upon how you have your definitions of socialism and capitalism… painted-up and hard-lined in your mental beliefs of those phenomenon. To paint MY version of these things per who I am and what I believe… just think church playgrounds, potluck meals, communes, barnraisings, parenting each others kids, removal of all borders including national borders, yard fences, and entitles of ownership… etc etc. Christian socialist is what I am. Nun with a gun.
Ok, ok, that’s too harsh. I’m much too pacifist for that. Ruler with a ruler.
Farm mom. I believe in power fairness, bum or brilliance. Everyone gets the same exact wellbeing supplies, no matter if they’re willing to rat-race aboard the free marketeers pyramid scheme, or not. Btw… it was my 9 years of active duty in the USA Air Force… that helped make me socialist. The contrast between the high-discrimination every-man-for-himself civilian sector… and the super-low-discrimination take-care-of-each-other, everyone-on-the-same-team MILITARY world… was seen to be quite stark. You must see it yourself, as I think I read that you are military. I am 50, now. I was active from 1976-1985. I was a crypto tech… 306×0 in the AFSC codes.
Communism, of course, is pure fantasy.
Could you be anymore hardlined and sure of yourself? If anything would kill debates with me, its inflexible statements of pure opinion… like that one. I can tell you’re young. If you want to debate, loosen these uninvestigated hard-line chiseled-in-granite beliefs such as this, please.
It is impossible for complex, national systems to be managed by a commune.
No it isn’t. We have computer networks. The REAL question that you’re trying to dig-up here is… CAN you ASK people to go to work on Earthkind-helping things, instead of having to dangle greenpapers (cookieplate-chasing incentives) in front of their noses? Can you avoid using Purina slavechow? Can you get people to come to work on/with (not FOR) good things… when they aren’t FORCED to gather these greenpapers JUST to get basic survival supplies? If you took the pricetags off-of food, housing, health care, tools… then when parents sharktanked their kids into “out there” at age 18… WOULD the 18 year olds work on world supply systems… without pay? Could you ask them nicely… into helping-out… even without the phenomenon of ownership, money, and pricetags? Can you get them to help… without “ordering” them or “or else”-ing them?? That’s the REAL question here, yes?
The only political system it could possibly exist with is a Full Non-Partisan Democracy, in which every policy issue is decided by a leaderless majority vote and that would obviously result in chaos. If such a system could somehow come into being it would last only until a board or committee was established to manage some aspect of government as would inevitably happen.
I agree. Decision-by-committee (egalitarian everyone-gets-a-say-on-every issue)… is tough. Yes, just like in the military, knowledge-collecting (tenure) helps (is powerful) in forming policies and laws. The “elders” will likely be in better positions to make certain decisions. But like the military, waivers are common, and new ideas get heard, weighed, and considered. If a certain law, tradition, policy, rule, expectation, what-have-you… causes duress on a certain individual or group… workarounds (waivers) can happen so these groups are not discriminated-against. No such waivers are seen for those like myself, who abhor capitalism and similar sure-to-collapse pyramids that rat-racing economies cause.
At that point, a political elite is born and will seek to gather more and more influence until they replace the commune as the State. Go read George Orwell’s Animal Farm. The pigs will take control.
Only until our laws arrest them for being pigs. (Doing unfairnesses to Team World). By chance, you didn’t already give pigs so much control of things… that they got control of the (morals) lawmaking, did you? You didn’t let capitalists into the government, I hope! You didn’t let capitalists into the churches, did you?? If so, yeah, there’s no governing, religious or judicial… when anything-goes capitalists are allowed to set rules and traditions. Main thing might be… follow Bible rules for existing, and not Life Magazine.
So Communism is a pipe dream. The closest you can get is Popular Socialism.
Is this open for debate, or are you hard-lined door-closed on that? Are you so sure of yourself, that its a “bottom line” case-closed thing? Can we debate this long enough so I can prove your statement wrong??
You wrote about servitude.
Why yes I did. Its seen everywhere within capitalism, as capitalism is a pyramid scheme or imperialism. Its AmWay… where the objective is… NOT HAVING TO SELL PRODUCTS DOOR-TO-DOOR. The objective in all pyramid schemes, is to climb high enough on the backs of others… until money just rolls-in without having to do any labor. Its the reason for the division between labor and management, and between management and proprietor. AmWay stands for American Way. Its a type of slavery system. You can see it, it just hurts to look at it. Do a google IMAGE SEARCH for ‘pyramid of capitalist’ and see a full color illustration that shows how capitalism was seen-thru as a con/sham way back in 1917… but people still signed aboard the thing as hard and fast as they could… until they started calling it “that’s life”. But its a man-made thing… Free Mason-based…. started way back with the advent of agriculture and the control of folks (empowerment) gotten from controlling food.
Servitude is being forced to work and forfeit what you produce to someone with power over you.
That’s what capitalism is now. 18 year olds are forced to “join or starve”… and they HAVE TO join because pricetags and bills will kill them if they don’t have greenpapers to fend-off the “cost of living” (cost of remaining alive on a completely OWNED Earth). Its known as forced religion and extortion in some circles. Forcing people to do things… OR ELSE… is extortion… a felony. So much for freedom of choice for our 18 year olds, eh? Forcing kids into joining the competer’s church (capitalism) sure kills membership in the cooperator’s church (Christian socialisms). We give them only one rope to hang themselves with, don’t we? The capitalism rope. Join, or starve. Get a job, or die. Nice! (and demented)
In a Capitalist system, while there will be those who live below the poverty line, no one is a servant. A worker is compensated in Wealth for any work he does at a wage determined by the impartial demands of a Free Market. In a Popular Socialist system workers are forced - ultimately at the barrel of a gun - to surrender their Wealth to the State. In most places in America today, working and middle class workers essentially work for the State three to six months out of the year, and have no choice in the matter other than to stop working altogether. This is servitude.
That chunk was SO filled with capitalism propaganda that’s been spoon-fed up your butt by society… that I can’t even start to address it. Just remember that police guns back ownership laws. Ownership is illegal… as the previous owner of all earth materials… was never consulted. Until someone talks to the makers of the Earth, its materials can’t be owned…. not the dirt/land, not the food, not the lakes, not the forests and mountains, and not ANYTHING made FROM those materials. Ownership of Earth-creator-owned Earth materials… is illegal by our very “owned” ownership laws (no consulting with original owner). Entitles of ownership, money, pricetags, bills, timecards, working FOR instead of WITH, all were invented by mankind, not by Earth creators. They are all things invented by capitalism/economies. Ownership is a belief, not a real phenomenon. Its a squatting of something once owned by Earth creators… sold/titled without their permission. I’m pretty sure no FOR SALE signs or entitles of ownership existed before mankind invented them. No other living creature on the entire planet… honors entitles of ownership, money, billings, pricetags, timecardings, invoicings, etc. No other creature stacks themselves into pyramids of inequality, either. It is strictly a man-made thing… that mercantiling/busy-ness thing the caps got conned-into. Its a herd-control system… trinket-chasing and elbowing convention. REAL Christians would never be seen doing capitalism. Competition is NOT healthy, and never was. Competition is the opposite of cooperation. This is the way I see things… and I have research evidence that backs it… but I’m open to be debated.
As for “abolishing economies and ownershipism”, this is yet another fantasy. You may as well abolish emotions or relationships. Economy is just the word we use to describe the contractual interactions between humans. If one person makes a promise to another in return for another promise, an economy is born. It is how people deal with one another. “Ownershipism” is equally impossible to abolish. Being the owner of something just means that you get to decide how it is used or distributed. If no one had the decision authority to use or distribute goods and services, those goods and services could never be used or distributed.
Oooh, we almost slipped into a debate over WHAT IS HUMAN NATURE, didn’t we? Handwashing, forsaking, negligent homicide, chalking things up to human nature… saying things like “they brought it on themselves”… is a very complicated area of town, discussion-wise. We might go there eventually… but I hope you got the pixel-ink storage tanks filled-up on your Wordpress, cuz we’re gonna be doing some typing.
As for the creepy bridge you described, there will always be someone at the center of the bridge. It may be Capitalists choosing how to reinvest their Capital for their own benefit or it may be a Socialist political elite trying vainly to intervene in the myriad of personal interactions that create the economy. And as long as there are people, the bridge will exist. If it’s torn down, everyone will fall into misery, but the bridge will eventually be rebuilt as people seek to create order amongst themselves.
Is “order” the same as strife for perfect fairness? Is “order” hierarchical… with controllers and servants? Labor and management?? Does “order” mean FLAT farmlands (equality amongst all) instead of pyramids?? Do “ordered” things lose freedom/choice?? When one “orders” a hamburger in a fast-food joint, are the burgerslaves ORDERED to build you a hamburger… OR ELSE?? (under threat of losing wellbeing via being “fired”) (”fired” - how violent a term, eh?) (close to “shot”, eh?)
Capitalism at least allows each individual in the bridge to have some control over their own lives. Even if poor, they possess the dignity of freedom. They will never be slaves to the State. That is the message of liberty. I believe that God endowed us with Free Will and He wants us to exercise it, not surrender it to the State.
Who is this “state”, again? Do you mean “Team World”?? In my hope of a better way, nobody will be forced to do anything. Everyone will be ASKED to help-out if they can, especially if the supply system gets so screwed-up that 10 million children die per year on the planet from lack of basic survival needs. (Like right now!)
You would NEVER see the military supply system allow 10 million of its troops to die somewhere on the planet… from lack of basic supplies. The military is too smart and efficient with its “team” to do that. In the civilian sector, competition is the theme, not cooperation. So its every man for himself in capitalism land… and that’s why… according to World Health Org stats… 10 million civilian children die on the planet per year… from having no survival supplies. Its a REAL statistic. Are there ANY Christians left?? As far as I can count… and from what I see at bestCyrano and other anti-capitalism sites… there may be only about 1000 of us remaining… who care about those 10 million supply-starved children who die every year. The majority of folks… are juiced-up on rat-racing aboard the giant herd-control pyramid scheme, and well-addicted to an enjoyment or 10, and well-blindered and “not my problem” foresaking and negligent homiciding. Not good. Piss-poor supply/survival system. The caps need to take a look at the pile of dead bodies back by the see-no-evil exhaust pipe of their giant “c’mon, everyone climb aboard” railroaded Earth-mowing machine.
Ok, I’m pooped for this session. One thing to keep in mind as we debate… if you please… is the difference between “WHY CAPITALISM SUCKS TERRIBLY”… and “WHAT DO WE DO INSTEAD?”. I mainly concentrate upon WHY CAPITALISM IS ATROCIOUS AND MUST STOP! I have only light-theories (and not much edu/research) on how to do better survival systems. Anything is better than 10 million dead kids a year, one would think. Anywhat, lets try to keep the two subjects separate. In MANY ways, I believe NOTHING needs to “replace” capitalism, it just needs to stop, so the built-into-man’s-hearts-survival system can once again rise. I think one of the most important things to accomplish in the NEW CIVILIAN survival system… is the use of the military’s definitions of ‘luxury’ versus ‘necessity’. The military also somewhat follows the church’s opinion of such. Again, though, try to keep the WHY CAPITALISM IS TERRIBLE subject matter…. at LEAST in a different paragraph from the WHAT DO WE DO INSTEAD subject… if possible.
If you want to continue the debates, I MIGHT paste-in a few posts that I’ve left at other blogs… that fit our discussions. I’ve been fighting capitalism for a LONG time… and its hard work, and I get yelled-at and censored pretty often. You seem reasonably kind and cordial. Thanks for being that way! I will try to do the same. I’m working on a near-done shareware javascript Firefox-addon multimedia’n'css chat client, so some of my hours are burnt on that thing. But I will try to come visit often, and feel free to question the hell out of my ponderances…. I’ll do my best to address things. Think love’n'peace, incense-burning, sitar-playing, animal-tree-bug-hugger hippy…. if you need a picture of who I am. I study and befriend bugs and their communes, as a hobby, as well. I’m a web devver, electronics tech, 30+ year country music picker/singer, pipe smoker, general nerd/geek outlaw, living in the iron ore areas of Michigan’s upper penninsula… about to get our first snow. Tell me/us a bit more about YOU, if you’d be so kind. You didn’t tell us NEAR enough “juice” in your “about Chance” area.
Aside: Ever hear of Project Sanguin or something like that?? Many years ago, a massive antenna array was to be buried in this area… miles and miles and miles worth… in order to talk to submarines. It was scrapped for some reason, but when I thought about you being in the “silent service”, I thought about IT. It was surely before your active service dates… but… I was curious if you’d heard of it, just the same.
Take care Chance and other readers/bloggers! Best wishes to everyone! Post posts, lurkers!! Chance doesn’t censor as best I can tell… so that makes him/her a-ok in my book! This is my first time attempting quoting in a Wordpress, so, sorry if I screwed it up. Chance, edit things as needed, within reason, of course. Bestest!! Wingnut - AC
Billy said: “The more populated, and smaller, the world gets, the more moderate we become - the more we melt into a mean value of our ideology.”
I disagree for two reasons. One, Socialism is antithetical to the principles of a free society. Once you make it legal for a group to forcibly take an individual’s property and redistribute it as they see fit, the balance is lost.
Two, the State has no motivation to limit its own power other than the objection of the people. Once the tool that gives legal authority to those objections - the Constitution - is devalued as a “living document” that can be changed or reinterpreted as the State sees fit, the people lose their legal protection and the State is omnipotent. Then, each passing generation becomes more accustomed to being “taken care of” and surrendering a little more property to the State, and the State will push it a little further. There is no moderating force therefore there is no settling to the mean as you suggest, but rather an asymptotic approach to slavery.
I’m not sure about Nobel laureates, but I do believe that Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and the rest of that crew came up with a pretty good system to guarantee individual rights and liberty. I won’t list all of their quotations that support what I’m talking about here, but I welcome you to go out and buy a copy of The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul. His arguments for freedom are based largely in their words.
Wingnut: Easy with the caps lock and multiple exclamation points. Furthermore, you attack Chance’s confidence in his declaration of belief, which is just as fallacious as “I can tell you’re young.” Nothing sours a written opinion like an ad hominem.
Chance: “Socialism is antithetical to the principles of a free society.” You speak of freedom as if that’s the only social value we ought care about. Freedom is important, but so is safety. I’ll use some examples from my world. Compulsory vaccination has a profound impact on public health, and it is hard to argue it’s not for the greater good. There is a profound increase in productivity and longevity with a concomitant decrease in suffering. That said, compulsory vaccination is quite at-odds with a free society, yet, in my opinion, it is necessary.
Secondly, any government must be accountable to the people. Pure capitalism and pure socialism both concentrate power to narrowly. As evidenced by early 20th century America / Europe and Cold War Eastern Europe, respectively.
Hi Billie, Chance, others. Yep, I’ll give it a try with the punctuation and caps… but…. its an old habit. I’ll try to stay conscious of it, thanks for the pointer. And yes, although not meant to hurt, that line you quoted sure could be interpreted as a flamer. Sorry about that. To illustrate better, I can see “buds” on Chance’s metaphorical “think it all out”-tree… where branches have not yet grown. I see facets and ramifications to stances he has taken… that have not yet been thought through. We all have them. I bumped into a few of his, and made that comment. It was an unnecessary comment. I hope nobody’s feelings got or get hurt. I’ll likely do unnecessary stingers again, so put on the steel-toed workboots, because being around Wingnut… is like being in a construction zone. Toes CAN get stepped-on. Its a hard hat zone. I work to save babies. My posts are as much aimed at “the world” as they are at the members of this blog. So, if possible, don’t take things I say… personally. I’m not important enough to take anything I say… to heart. Let it roll off your back… it carries little weight… if any at all.
Thanks again for the pointers. peace’n'love
Oops, speaking of old habits… sorry for the misspelling of your name, Billy. My mother’s name is Billie and I email her often. Wing Chung King
I’m hesitant to remark just because of the reasons Chance so eloquently stated a while back, but in the words of the great Jim Carrey, “I usually don’t do this, but I think I’ll go with my instincts on this one.”
Chance’s descriptions and pro’s/con’s of both are spot on, but there is a fundamental problem with both, and I hope Chance will agree with me on this: a priori.
Neither system is inherently bad, but when put into practice suffer with extreme instability and inefficiency, especially when expanded to such large scales as the United States or any large country. Furthermore, both rely on an inherent altruistic ideal that is not evident in reality (or should be expected, really.)
I think the real heart of the matter is what he remarked upon as the “Rule of Law.” The best and most efficient form of governemnt is arbuably authoritarian in nature, but is wholy dependent on the quality of leader and his ability to maintain order among a potentially volitile population. The other end of the extreme, pure democracy, suffers from extreme inefficieny, but the personal qualities of one person is not too terribly important compared to the moral authority of the population at large.
In other words: there is no right answer, especially as the population of the nation-state gets larger and larger. Today’s American policy of Ignorant Socialism is terrible, but really what would work better? Of course things would be better if I were in charge, but that is just my opinion (insert mischievous smile.)
Wingnut, (Is that a play on left-wing nut?)
I was very pleased to read your second post. It seemed much more reasonable and cogent than your first. It was the all caps, exclamation points (as Billy pointed out), high-emotion verbage and stream of consciousness of that first post that made me afraid that we wouldn’t be able to have a reasonable debate. Perhaps you’d had one too many puffs on that pipe of yours before you wrote it?
I’m afraid I don’t have the time to reply to every point you made. Your posts are very long. While I assure you I have considered them all, I must limit my response to a few, and maybe in this way we can focus the discussion. If I leave one out you were particularly attached to, please call me on it.
You said that you detested Capitalism, but were indifferent to the follow-on system as long as it was fully egalitarian. The problem with this is that no human system is perfect. Therefore, a system can only be judged when compared to another system. We have to decide first if a system is possible, and second if we would like to live in such a system. You said anything would be better than 10 million dead children a year. How about 20 million? How about all of them? The system you criticize and the system that would replace it are impossible to separate. So, sorry, I’ll need to believe there is something better before I turn my back on Capitalism.
The system you put forth as an example was the United States Air Force. The problem with your example is that, while the military is indeed a socialist system, it is entirely funded and supplied from an external source. It is very easy to design a system when you don’t have to worry about where the resources are coming from.
Also, the military is not egalitarian, but highly hierarchical and authoritarian. If I don’t follow the orders of the officer appointed above me, I go to jail. While I don’t mind temporarily surrendering some of my freedom to serve my nation, I have a big problem thinking about my children growing up in a world where they have no choice in the matter.
One further thing about that: the military is highly inefficient. Resources are wasted on a massive scale. A private army would get its missions done a lot faster and cheaper. Unfortunately, private armies would put an end to our republic rather quickly. That’s the real danger behind our use of mercenary forces like Blackwater… but I digress.
I also take issue with your pyramid scheme metaphor. As a manager, I assure you that I don’t just sit around watching the money pour in. Of course, in my job we only watch the money pour out, but you get my point. I do plenty of work. I work longer hours than the “laborers” when I’m at a sea-going command. Managers have worked hard to get where they are and so have proprietors (for the most part). Those that are born with silver spoons in their hand are only so because their parents or grand-parents worked their butts off. If I can’t count on my hard work to improve the lives of my children, why the heck am I working at all?
And that’s where the rubber meets the road. Why do people do what they do? How many people are out there, do you think, that would labor for humanity as a whole, without any possibility of increased security, status or luxuries that weren’t already going to be provided to them? I would point you to a brief overview of history and say very few. In all of recorded history, I know of no coherent group in any part of the world beyond the scale of a village or tribe that has existed as a stable and peaceful commune. The closest I can think of is a nomadic “barbarian” horde like the mongols. Ruled brutally by the strongest, they were otherwise very egalitarian and communal, but like our military example, they could only survive as long as they could siphon away the wealth of producers.
As for ownership, I must repeat my claim that to suggest it be banned is ludicrous. Owning something just means you get to decide where it is and how it’s used. Let’s say everything you dream of comes to pass, and you and I are lounging around a campfire in our tie-died robes smoking our pipes and talking about how bad things used to suck when I was a Free Market Capitalist. I’m feeding scraps of government cheese to my little friend, Lenin the Cocker Spaniel. Some big dude walks by, grabs little Lenin by the scruff of the neck (he’s a living creature, but unable to vocalize his will in the matter), snatches my pipe out of my mouth and begins to puff on it, kicks sand all over our fire, and then wrestles you out of your hippy robe before walking off with a wave and a shout, “I love not owning anything!” Now, obviously we feel put upon. That guy took our things, even my little dog! He had no right to do that! But why not? Because we owned them, and he should respect our right to property.
The only way to make a guy like that respect it is with force. Now we need a government with the power to protect our property. But we have to be careful, because if we make the government too powerful, they will take our property. Maybe we should dig out that old scrap of paper… what was it called? Oh yeah, the Constitution!
… ok, I wrote way more than I intended. As for your questions about me, I’ll refer you to my Campaign For Liberty profile: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/user/LTChance/ perhaps I will update the About Me portion of this site at some point.
By the way, please don’t paste posts from other sites in here. Your posts are already very long and are scary to my liberty loving friends. Perhaps a link or two from time to time. Regards.
Wingnut, (Is that a play on left-wing nut?)
Hi Chance and others! Um… Air Force folk are sometimes called “wing-walkers”, and during my time in the AF, I was a nut (always playing practical jokes). Thus, wingnut.
It is also my stage name. I’ve performed over 2000 gigs in my life, so far…. mostly VFW’s and Legions and the like.
I was very pleased to read your second post. It seemed much more reasonable and cogent than your first.
My first post was a combo of two posts from the MaStars campaign. Although they were about the subject of your post, they are more for attacking of a system. Capitalism is a systemic problem, not something that someone is to blame-for or need be lynched-for. Although those types of posts are a ‘trolling’ (some kind of sin?), think of them as dual purpose. I am able to remind the world of 10 million dead-of-supply-starvation-children per year, and test the waters (intelligence and open-mindedness) of whomever is running this blog and trying to analyse supply systems. I need frinds and intelligent conversation as much as the next guy. But I am an active activist, as well. I generate many capitalism scoldings per month. I’m going to bring this attrocity to a halt, even if it takes court action. Servitude should have long-ago been illegal and it is anti-freedom and anti-Christian. Those are characteristics that this country struts proudly. When you have a servitude festival like capitalism, liberty is not happening, friend. Freedom of choice, especially for us Christian anti-caps… is gone. We’re being railroaded.
You said that you detested Capitalism, but were indifferent to the follow-on system as long as it was fully egalitarian.
Mis-interpretted. I am not indifferent to such. I have ideas on how things should basically work in New America… but there are very smart inventory folk who know more than I about designing “for team world” incentive and supply systems. They should be consulted. Put REAL Christians (farm moms/nun-likes) in the leadership roles of the nation, and there’s a chance of pulling it off. If you/we never allow farm-mom-like folk (everyone gets equal love and happiness) in the leadership roles, and instead only Earth resource controlism fighters get there, you/we will NEVER be able to do a proper Christian-ish commune. Trade must go. Only giving allowed. No transacting. Open your mind. Think church playground and potlucks and barnraisings. No hoarding/saving and no owning/controlling. Everything belongs to “God” or “Team World”. Easy. We ALL set the policies and waivers to such. Team World poicies and rules are always under scrutiny… by everyone. They evolve constantly and try to form-fit to all Earth-being needs and wishes, as is best possible. The difinition of “best” is always being voted-on, too.
The problem with this is that no human system is perfect.
Schools can teach a person to be pretty darned close. All-loving and high-tolerence = perfect, right? Yes, folks will make mistakes… get grabby and gougy… but with a “take care of each other” loving guide nearby (every single person on the planet)(we police each other)… someone will point-out the grabbiness/hoard or the selfism. Sounds proposterous, eh? Its not. It can be done. We will need SERIOUS help from the schools. They will teach how to take care of one another, like they teach in the military. We’ll all be on the same team. We will also teach inventory/supply mangement and materials-care wisdom, just like the military. Do you see military folk intentionally trashing military-owned vehicles or tools? No. WHY? Cuz they’d go to military jail… which is teachy teachy jail. There’s no need for ownership. Just teach WHY its bad to damage “team” materials. Military, all the way.
Therefore, a system can only be judged when compared to another system. We have to decide first if a system is possible, and second if we would like to live in such a system. You said anything would be better than 10 million dead children a year. How about 20 million? How about all of them? The system you criticize and the system that would replace it are impossible to separate. So, sorry, I’ll need to believe there is something better before I turn my back on Capitalism.
As soon as you think-out the church playground egalitarian route, you’ll realize that sharing the Earth equally, and being loving to each other, is the ONLY WAY we will survive. Competition is the opposite of cooperation. We need to cooperate, not compete, in order to survive. Tug-o-wars do not work. Thus ownership and owned money… do not work. No man is born equal in this system. In capitalism, you are born at the layer of the pyramid that your parents are at… at the time of birth. You are born with THEIR crony-group and bloodlined gold/good name. Once upon a time, folks were born on Earth and the Earth WASN’T completely owned.
The system you put forth as an example was the United States Air Force. The problem with your example is that, while the military is indeed a socialist system, it is entirely funded and supplied from an external source. It is very easy to design a system when you don’t have to worry about where the resources are coming from.
Yeah, capitalism has its price tags on every single thing on the planet these days, eh? That includes survival supplies and tools for the military… and for Darfur folk. I wonder how those price tags got onto those items. Maybe a mercantiler who needs those greenstamps… so he/she can both profit, and dangle some of them in front of slaves to work for his/her personal pyramid (company)? You bet. Pyramids… ain’t they fun? Previous civilizations built large ones out in the dessert so that our generation would know what they’re here to learn about. They were built by communes, not heirarchies. All workers on The Great Pyramids… were volunteer and treated equally… in my opinion. They built a giant educational symbol for us to “read”. Few of us read it.
Also, the military is not egalitarian, but highly hierarchical and authoritarian. If I don’t follow the orders of the officer appointed above me, I go to jail. While I don’t mind temporarily surrendering some of my freedom to serve my nation, I have a big problem thinking about my children growing up in a world where they have no choice in the matter.
It is an EXPERIENCE-based rank, and not a wellbeing-rank. The amount of supplies issued by the military supply system… is exactly the same for any rank. No jetboats or Learjets, no fancy housing, no shiny SUV’s, no silk underwear or sheets, will ever be issued from the military supply system. Notice that the difference in pay between oficers and enlisted… is not very large… often simply reflecting the size of family that the member is needing to support. The military supply system is actually quite non-discriminatory… second only to the USA Public Library system. Military supplies are definitely not monetary-discriminated. Coupon-discrim is strictly AmWay herd-control-system stuff.
One further thing about that: the military is highly inefficient. Resources are wasted on a massive scale. A private army would get its missions done a lot faster and cheaper. Unfortunately, private armies would put an end to our republic rather quickly. That’s the real danger behind our use of mercenary forces like Blackwater… but I digress.
Yes, communes run a little sloppy, but the happiness of the members and sense of “take care of each other” security is so high… that its allowed. As quality Team World members, we should always try to avoid wasting materials and manhours. Its common military policy to alwys try to do that. Aren’t you a member?
And that’s where the rubber meets the road. Why do people do what they do? How many people are out there, do you think, that would labor for humanity as a whole, without any possibility of increased security, status or luxuries that weren’t already going to be provided to them?
Now why did you need to go and add-on that trailer line? You were doing fine until… “without any possibility of increased security, status or luxuries that weren’t already going to be provided to them?” No, no, no. Every single move that one person makes to improve “Team World”… helps everyone who is a member of Team World. Same as the military. A great military team player is always looking for ways to improve “the team” and make the overall project work better in some way. This is how one gets a good name and reputation… and gets followed by TV cameras… and gets to be a mentor to the kids and co-workers. Build a machine or system that makes the WORST Team World job … much easier… and you are a Team World hero. Idealistic, you say? Yeah, GOOD IDEAlistic.
I would point you to a brief overview of history and say very few. In all of recorded history, I know of no coherent group in any part of the world beyond the scale of a village or tribe that has existed as a stable and peaceful commune. The closest I can think of is a nomadic “barbarian” horde like the mongols. Ruled brutally by the strongest, they were otherwise very egalitarian and communal, but like our military example, they could only survive as long as they could siphon away the wealth of producers.
You seem to have forgotten about “tribes”… including American Indian tribes. One could ask one’s self… “Can a common tribe… be kept from factioning (splitting into possibly-warring multi-tribes)? To tell the truth, I don’t know. Can we learn to be loving and tolerant of controversial (far left) members of Team World? I just don’t know. Its a hope I have, just the same. It seems to me, that when the objective is controlling something, factions can’t get along. When the objective is to take care of one another, they seem to get along fine.
As for ownership, I must repeat my claim that to suggest it be banned is ludicrous.
Of course you think that. The thought of un-owned Earth materials… is too new. The concept of ownership/control (do as you’re told) has been pumped up your butt for your entire life.
Owning something just means you get to decide where it is and how it’s used. Let’s say everything you dream of comes to pass, and you and I are lounging around a campfire in our tie-died robes smoking our pipes and talking about how bad things used to suck when I was a Free Market Capitalist. I’m feeding scraps of government cheese to my little friend, Lenin the Cocker Spaniel. Some big dude walks by, grabs little Lenin by the scruff of the neck (he’s a living creature, but unable to vocalize his will in the matter), snatches my pipe out of my mouth and begins to puff on it, kicks sand all over our fire, and then wrestles you out of your hippy robe before walking off with a wave and a shout, “I love not owning anything!” Now, obviously we feel put upon. That guy took our things, even my little dog! He had no right to do that! But why not? Because we owned them, and he should respect our right to property.
Yeah, freedom to kick-over a sandcastle of mounded Earth material… no matter who mounded it… is true freedom, isn’t it? Ownership means much more than what you have listed. Just remember that it works just like the military. Destroy some tool that belongs to Team Earth, and at least some schooling on “love your materials” will happen, if not a bit of time in the brig. Laws still exist. Love and fairness laws, for the most part. Jails are more huggy and teachy than the current ones are. Robbery will no longer exist… nor will almost all duress. Workplaces become fun… not filled with “deadlines”. All crimes done to get survival supplies… will vanish… with the issuing of freely-usable requisition forms… just like in the military. You can’t requisition a Learjet or yacht… they are stored in “rec services” for all to equally check-out and share…. just like the military and public library. (I asked you to think about the military difference between ‘luxury’ and ‘necessity’… for this very reason.) C’mon, catch onto this, Chance! You’re an anti-capitalism-ist just waiting to happen. ANY and ALL military folk.. know a better way than capitalism. They just can’t quite bring it into focus.
The only way to make a guy like that respect it is with force. Now we need a government with the power to protect our property. But we have to be careful, because if we make the government too powerful, they will take our property. Maybe we should dig out that old scrap of paper… what was it called? Oh yeah, the Constitution!
I just quoted that… to prove to myself that indeed, I DID see you condone force and condone the constitution, all in the same paragraph.
Thanks for the reply… well done. Your concerns are relevent and pertinent. The step into economy-less land is no small move. We have to stop chalking things up to human nature, and start admitting how very much… that many human tendencies… are actually “learned behavior”. We would have to stop teaching our kids to mercantile… and that means the death of lemonade stands and ice cream trucks (if they mercantile). We have to ask each child to become “fairness tattletails” and inequality cops. We have to teach them stories of caring, and tell them to proudly carry those loving and sharing policies beyond 18 years old… and carry them “out there” into the “real world”. We need to remove the border between “in here” and “out there”. No longer will we “send” our kids “out there” into the world. They will instead always stay “in here” as cared-for members of Team World. Its a long, hard trail, but its the one needing taking.
Best Regards!
Wingnut - Anti-Capitalism-ist (against systems, not role players in those systems)
Mr. Wing Nut:
I understand your dream of a system based on only giving and in a perfect world it would work. Unfortunately, the closest we will get to that is during the 1000 year reign of Christ or the new Earth after that.
Unfortunately, in the world we are in now, we are all fallen and lead a fallen, cursed life. Human nature is inherent to evil. We had a system where everyone helped each other out, during the early years of our country. People could build real wealth, and when given the chance, helped the poor and needy as well.
Even today in our debt ridden, socialist society, people are giving.
We also gave away our rights and decision making power to the evil and greedy.
People can be taught certain things, and it has happened in the past. But if there is power to be had or taken, people will attempt it. Thus the downfall of any free society is the people within it and their moral tendencies.
Once people discover they can “vote” themselves gifts from the treasury, they usually will.
I would love to live in a Utopian society like you describe, but in this evil world a super miniscule gov’t, pure capitalism and free markets give me the best chance to provide for my family and help others as well.
Hi Don, thanks for the reply and kind understanding.
I understand your dream of a system based on only giving and in a perfect world it would work.
What if we turned that line backwards, and said ‘To make a perfect world, build a system based upon only giving’? I don’t think we can wait for others or higher powers to make a perfect world. I think we’re going to need to do it ourselves. Thus I am planning a cease and desist case for capitalism… and will take it to court. When I get killed trying to do that, will others follow, or get too scared to try? Do folks care about the planet anymore, or only about their “owned things” that reside within the yard fences of their nations unto selves? (their my my my’s) Notice the use of ‘my’ in daily capitalist conversation. My doctor, my lawyer, my divorce, my car, my kids, my house, my lunch break, my cigarette. Each and every ‘my’ can be replaced with ‘a’ or ‘the’. Would you say folks are feeling a little powerless and are acquiesced to such? Is it their need to control something? Do they HAVE this need-to-control, because they feel insignificant and unimportant? Likely. Such feelings of unloved and unbelonging… don’t happen in decent communes. Military people, for example, use FAR less mymymy talkings… than the civilians do.
Unfortunately, the closest we will get to that is during the 1000 year reign of Christ or the new Earth after that.
Can we Christian-leaning wise folk… MAKE that happen?
Unfortunately, in the world we are in now,
Do you mean “in the system that we’ve condoned, promoted, joined, and are caught-up-in and well addicted-to”? I think you probably did.
we are all fallen and lead a fallen, cursed life.
I don’t. I fight that system all the way, and would never acquiesce to such a thing. You can be that way, too. Once enough of us refuse to join the herd-control system, it will fall (even faster than it is falling on its own).
Human nature is inherent to evil.
No, I don’t believe that. This ‘evil’ you speak-of, is “learned behavior”, not human nature… in my opinion. Once ownership goes, robbing and hoarding no longer make sense, even to the thieves and hoarders. Once the world inventory control system is in place, everyone on the planet will know what has been hoarded/saved. Inventory managers can walk right into ‘your’ Team World-owned house and see the stock sitting there. After all, nobody is the owner of ‘their’ house anymore. They are instead the custodian of it.
We had a system where everyone helped each other out, during the early years of our country. People could build real wealth, and when given the chance, helped the poor and needy as well.
Well, I don’t condone “real wealth”, whatever that is. But yeah, back when the Earth wasn’t hoarded and owned, love could still be seen, eh? We made products that were supposed to last many lifetimes, and often did. Now we just build stuff that will tantalize shoppers into forking over maximum greenstamps (profit) for minimum quality. We let that old world wisdom slip away, didn’t we? *nod*
Even today in our debt ridden, socialist society, people are giving.
Not much, but some. These days, its important to save save save (hoard) in order to protect ourselves from unexpected bills and future huge pricetags that we do to ourselves. I call it spirography, or “what goes around, comes around”. All issued bills, as well as all issued love, gets handed-on and handed-on until it returns to its issuee. Spirography is likely beyond the scope of this blog… but maybe we’ll get there. Since Chance doesn’t want me pasting things, I’d have to re-type-out the entire story of spirography, and I don’t know if I have the gumption to do that for this small audience. I’m already hearing whining about long posts.
We also gave away our rights and decision making power to the evil and greedy.
Yep, capitalists did indeed hand over their power to capitalists. You can see it when folks call capitalism “that’s life” and “world”. Its not life or world, its a giant single company… called AmWay. Its pyramid symbol is plainly seen on the back of the one dollar AmWay rat-racing coupon. Everyone knew what they were joining, by honoring money, pricetags, and entitles of ownership.
People can be taught certain things, and it has happened in the past. But if there is power to be had or taken, people will attempt it.
Not if its illegal and well policed and enforced.
Thus the downfall of any free society is the people within it and their moral tendencies.
Human nature or learned behavior? Careful, we are a handwashing sort, so its REAL easy to chalk things up to human nature… so we can blinder ourselves and clear our consciences of any wrong-doing. I think you’ll find that MOST things that have been chalked-up to human nature… are actually learned behaviors. Ink-up the pixel inkwells, Chance… the learned behavior versus human nature debate… is rolling.
(I’ve been down these trails on many blogs in my life).
Once people discover they can “vote” themselves gifts from the treasury, they usually will.
Yep, as long as such is not policed and enforced-against, its a “whatever the market will bear” scenario, eh? *nod* Outlaw it, and it goes away. Federal prison has a way of convincing folks to avoid harming “Team World”.
I would love to live in a Utopian society like you describe,
Good to hear that. I think MANY people would like it… so… lets make it happen. We know its the right thing to do, and we know its how things are supposed to work. Also, if we DON’T do it, we will perish, and capitalists that are unfairly caught-up in this serve-the-rich system… won’t get freedom to live real lives and may face afterlife retribution. I love the capitalists, no matter how bought-in they are. I care for/about them and their afterlife. I hate to see them conned into a duress-filled population
control system. It angers me.
but in this evil world a super miniscule gov’t,
Not only miniscule, but Christian morals-less.
pure capitalism and free markets give me the best chance to provide for my
my my my my my?
Nation unto self? MY nation within MY yard fence? MY owned/controlled things? Ever thought about forsaking and negligent homicide… caused by not giving a crap about things beyond YOUR yard fence? Feel powerless to do anything about things outside the yard fence? Welcome to capitalism. Goodbye Christianity.
family and help others as well.
You can’t really “afford” to help others, at least not with greenstamps, right? Its at least diffi-cult. Pricetags make almost any ‘helping’… not affordable. Maybe someday we’ll talk about the term ‘afford’ here, but not today in this post. Exorbitant pricetags are making many things inini, and its increasing massively by the hour. inini = infeasible’n'implausible’n'impractical.
Don, thanks for the response. Well said. Just because I did an exegeses reply, don’t take it as disagreement whatsoever. Although said with a bit of capitalism bias, what you have said is quite correct. Take care, gang.
To Billy: You sounded a lot like Thomas Hobbes there for a second, Saying that yes capitalism is great but because humans are inheriently evil, that it wouldn’t work. . .
Quote from a wikipedia analysis of Hobbes views in his book, Leviathan:
“Beginning from a mechanistic understanding of human beings and the passions, Hobbes postulates what life would be like without government, a condition which he calls the state of nature. In that state, each person would have a right, or license, to everything in the world. This inevitably leads to conflict, a “war of all against all” (bellum omnium contra omnes), and thus lives that are “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short” (xiii).”
Kinda reminds me of chance’s last scenario, where the big guy takes his dog the hippie pipe. . .even IN a communist society, if someone did that, to you or someone else, our natural reaction would be anger, and violence.
Hobbes as I remember in my high school history class, was interested in the state becoming powerful enough to suppress the inherent(sp?) evil of humanity.
John Locke on the other hand (the philosopher that the founding fathers based nearly ALL of their policies on in the constitution)
viewed humans as inherently good. He claimed that people were given a blank slate “tabula rasa” and shaped by what happens in our lives, and how we react and think about those events (nurture over nature)
“I think I may say that of all the men we meet with, nine parts of ten are what they are, good or evil, useful or not, by their education.” -John Lockes “Essay”
Because of the fact that we are generally good, we don’t need a leviathan type government, just a government that can protect our basic rights to take responsibility for ourselves. That is freedom and liberty. To be able to take responsibility for ourselves. If you believe that we are all evil, then you also believe that nothing can be done, save giving up our God-given free will to take responsibility for everything in our lives.
In a state like the current form of america (the “a” is un-capitalized on purpose) we have been living the last 100 years under a Hobbes philosophy, which has caused us as a people to:
1)Lose our rights to property (i.e. income tax, and the right to own and trade gold)
2)To be unable to decide how you will give your life for the country to prevent foreign invasion (i.e the draft via the selective service that all 18 year olds have to sign up for)
3)Eternal servitude and dependence on the government
Our evasion of accepting Responsibility is the main cause and continuation of the current financial crisis, when the people start to rely on the government they give up their freedom. . .
Freedom isnt just some grandiose word that is supposed to provoke tears and an unwavering belief and dependence -our current “patriotism” in the government.
Freedom is responsibility.
People aren’t inherently evil. They are good. . .
proof of this? The fact that we have been running away from our responsibility for SO many decades, 99.9% of americans know that something is wrong, and its mostly likely their. . no OUR fault. We’ve just been running away, afraid to face up to it and fix it.
This fear is what is evil, not humanity. Once we stop being afraid, and instead replace that fear with the fire: the burning desire to right our wrongs and improve our world, and ourselves, we can actually craft an America that is what the founding fathers envisioned. A burning desire in all humanity, the desire for self-reliance.
Dear Wingnut.
Does the bible teach self-sufficiency? (see apostle paul)
Does God want us to exercise our free will, or succumb to a gov’t police state.
Much of what you wrote centers around:
1) Teach people a set of ideals.
2) If people stray from this, enforce it.
People are inherently evil. If they weren’t, we wouldn’t have all the greed, corruption and evil in the world today. In fact, you can find in scripture where people are cursed and evil.
Of course, as a Christian, you have the holy spirit doing a good work in you every day, and as a Christian, should strive to be Christ-like.
I don’t disagree that in a system where everyone gives and has others in mind, the world wouldn’t be better off. However, what you describe sounds an awful lot like Communism. Your enforced learned behaviors aren’t very Christ like either.
So I offer you this.
My perfect world with a perfect economic system exists with Christ at the center, with Christ reigning and the curse removed from all, so there no longer exists evil. Then we can have our utopia.
Until then, I’ll take a return to true Capitalism and free markets, where we are supposed to be self sufficient.
Self sufficiency is the key to being able to help others.
Hi again Don, thanks for the reply.
Does the bible teach self-sufficiency? (see apostle paul)
I’m not a Christian fundamentalist, and I suspect the bible has been contaminated to fit capitalism ways, so I’m not sure if I’d know. (thx for the ref). Self-sufficiency, as used today, is nation-unto-selving and doesn’t sound very loving and sharing to me.
Does God want us to exercise our free will, or succumb to a gov’t police state.
I would think the Earth creator(s) would want to us to exercise God’s will, so neither of your choices are applicable. Come up with more choices. (see below where I talk about ‘there’s at least three sides to everything’)
Much of what you wrote centers around:
1) Teach people a set of ideals.
2) If people stray from this, enforce it.
Yes, somewhat correct. Not just teach some altruist ideals and policies, but show the people WHY those ideals are wise and loving. PROVE them to be wise and loving. Also, my version of “enforce” is more “remedial training” and not something that would harm or duress anyone. I believe in more of an “inconvenience and teach until they see the wise reasoning”-type of enforcement. If after a decent try, they must be still free to choose their own driection, and “the team” must try to be fair to them as well). No matter what, you can’t break needed team world materials, and you can’t hurt intentionally hurt any living thing. Simple rules… tightly enforced. My “enforce” is very similar to the tough-love-like enforcement we would do to a child. After all, I don’t believe that some kind of magical transformation happens when kids turn 18. Many folks carry their childlike ways into adulthood, and I think doing such… is a proper and good thing. It makes the world more enjoyable. Children tend to be far more spritely and happy than adults. They have loving minds, not competing minds like many adults.
People are inherently evil.
As you already know, I disagree with that.
If they weren’t, we wouldn’t have all the greed, corruption and evil in the world today.
Are you speaking of hoarding/saving and the gathering of as many greenstamps and entitles of ownership as one can? That’s done for many reasons besides greed. Its done for role-playing, its done for protection against unpredictable combative futures, its done out of greenstamp-collecting habit and addictions, its done because Life Magazine tells everyone that such is the “norm”. The reasons for “whatever the market will bear” greenstamp-collecting… are numerous.
Ever ask yourself “Why is there greed”? Is it a compensation for a fear, by chance? If so, what causes that fear? Is it omething to do with “measuring up, earn your keep, pull your weight, stand on your own two feet”, or some other sharktank-the-18-year-old capitalism programming we do to our kids?
Greed, I believe, is not human nature, especially in a world that doesn’t use ownership. What could be hoarded in an ownerless world? Nothing. Lets say someone tried to hoard-up (gather and store in a hidden place) a bunch of toilet paper and ice cream. What would be the use? Inventory control folks SAW you load it into your fleet car at the warehouse. They’d KNOW where it went… as that person has to use a requisition form to GET it. It can’t be sold… there’s no such thing as money. It can’t be owned by that person, there’s no such thing as titles or store receipts. It can’t be used to exploit labor from anyone, because if another desperately needs ice cream or toilet paper, they just fill-out a requisition form and go get some from the warehouse. The hoarder can’t bar inventory control folk from going into the Team World house where its hoarded-up-within and moving the hoard-up back-to the warehouse (back-to ice cream and toilet paper repository). The greedy one soon learns that its better to help make sure the warehouse never runs out-of toilet paper and ice cream, than it is to over-requisition a bunch of it. Don, your thoughts are stuck in a world of money and ownership. Think military, instead. I WOULD say “think one giant company” but… companies these days… are hierarchical, and thus they are pyramids full of inequality and servitude (yes-sir, no ma’m, having to answer-up to another). Some employees (working FOR instead of WITH) are given LOTS of wellbeing (management, proprietors)… and some are severely wellbeing-rationed (labor). Build a company where all are wellbeing-ed equally and loved equally, and you can use the term “company”. As long as the “project” (company/business) is filled with inequality and servitude, its destined to fall (and be an angry, fighting environment). All pyramids fall. Too many folk rat-racing to get to upper layers, and then it gets too top-heavy for bottom “labor” layers to support on their backs.
In fact, you can find in scripture where people are cursed and evil.
They still need INTENSE loving and tolerance from us. We need to care for each other, no matter what our tendencies. This is the altruist (Christian) way… and the team way… and the loving childlike way. Adults are just tall children. They still require love, hugs, cuddling, feeling safe, feeling integral, everything any child needs. No magical transformation happens to humans when they turn 18. In capitalism, that’s just the age where they get thrown into the great shark tank of fending-off bills, pricetags, and other “costs of living/remaining”… or else die. (nice and loving, eh?)
They get forced into the competer’s church. Goodbye Christianity and childhood loving ways. Non-born-set-for-life kids… are FORCED to compete, gouge hide, do whatever the market will bear, say “there’s nothing wrong with making a good profit”, you name it. They get railroaded or bandwagoned. They must march to something’s beat, and its not God’s beat. They must be allowed to hayride behind God’s bandwagon tractor, not ONLY capitalism’s bandwagon/hayride. The Christians, at minimum, should be allowed to have their own(ed) legal tender money, and churches should be allowed to hand it out like leafs falling from trees, just like military wellbeing requisition forms. Its not legal for AmWay (capitalism) to get the exclusive (legal tender) on the type of coupons (money) that’s allowed/accepted in supply depots (stores). That’s a felony… and a bandwagoning/railroading. (brainwashing) (lack of freedom of choice).
Of course, as a Christian, you have the holy spirit doing a good work in you every day, and as a Christian, should strive to be Christ-like.
I didn’t really ever get to meet or know the man… but I hear its a “love’n’share” operation, so I’m aboard that bandwagon/railroad. I don’t make a habit of studying wise systems, as I concentrate on destroying wrong and stupid systems. I’m a morals cop, in a way. I drive my morals police car right up to folks, and shine my police light in their face, and say “Whaaaaa chaaaaa doooooooin’?”. I have been ordained to do this activity… and I don’t strive or follow anything except what I feel ordained to do. Its all self-appointed. I know pyramiding (standing on the backs of lessers to get “high”) and I think its appalling, and its going to stop, one way or another.
I don’t disagree that in a system where everyone gives and has others in mind, the world wouldn’t be better off. However, what you describe sounds an awful lot like Communism.
Are you talking about the “communism” that’s got the bad name/reputation with the capitalists, or one of the other 650 flavors of commune-ity, commune-ion, and commune-icating?
Your enforced learned behaviors aren’t very Christ like either.
My version of force is much more gentle than the one you might have in mind. Mine “entices” and shows the logic-of the policy, and doesn’t use a whip. There are at least THREE sides to everything on this planet. It is a three dimensional planet… as we aren’t loving enough people to ascend to the fourth dimension (people fly) yet. Here’s a good example of getting something to do good work… via using the always-available third choice.
Lets say you needed/wanted a horse to help you (and itself) remove a stump from a portion of farm pasture. There are three ways to get that horse to help pull that stump.
1 - Carrot/stick/string. Fool the horse into thinking that goodness is just over the horizon… the same method used by capitalist pyramids (companies) to entice 18 year olds to come to work for their companies. Potentially-false hope of riches ahead.
2 - Spurs. Pure physical force. Kick the horse into submission. Get a job, or starve, mister.
3 - Learn to speak the language of the horse, and ask it to help if it would be so kind. Show the horse how the removal of the stump would be helpful and good for both itself and the land custodian. Show the horse, why its a good idea… but if you can’t convince the horse to help, it must be left to have its freedom and not be repeatedly re-asked or hounded. It should also not be treated in any way unfairly or disrespectfully if it chooses not to join your stump-removal team project. (Allow Wingnut to eat and pursue happiness too, even though he doesn’t want to participate in economies)
Now, WHICH is “the proper” way? I think you/we all know which is the proper way. We must slow down our lives enough to learn to speak horse… and be loving and fair. We must not fool anything into hopes of grandeur, either. Since we will not be fooling living things, fishing lures must go, for example. The new way we would “enjoy” fish… is to help them proliferate in their favorite environments, swim with them, feed them, play with them, and when one dies of old age, we can collect it and eat it (collect it for Team World inventory - to later be shared with Earthkind).
My perfect world with a perfect economic system exists with Christ at the center, with Christ reigning and the curse removed from all, so there no longer exists evil. Then we can have our utopia.
Sounds nice. There’s no need for economy… if everyone is wellbeing’d at the same level as each other. Christ doesn’t do competition, last I checked. Christ would NEVER do wellbeing rationing, and the USA military and USA public library system doesn’t do it either. Without wellbeing rationing, 10 million children wouldn’t starve per year, right? Its because they’d have equal basic wellbeing (food, cover, medical, opportunity, say on issues) as everyone else on the planet, right? Take down borders… we’re all on the same spaceship called Earth.
Until then, I’ll take a return to true Capitalism and free markets, where we are supposed to be self sufficient.
Self sufficiency is the key to being able to help others.
What have we done that made others NEED help? Maybe something like… pyramidically-shoving some living creatures into a position of needing help? Maybe they weren’t born-with the cronies, rich-name, old-gold, pyramid-layer, that others have been born-with? While some others are born set-for-life, they were born… set-for-servitude and wellbeing-rationing? I wonder what system DID that to them and their parents and grandparents? Could it be… pyramiding? Could pyramids be caused by rat-racing for trinket’n’sweets empowerment and shopping-junkie greenpapers called AmWay coupons (money)? Are we playing football instead of playing church? Are we head-butting each other and gobbling land, trying to out-maneuver each other and do sneaky plays in order to gain (capitalize) yardage?? Why have we condoned “playing football over ownership of Earth materials” as an ok thing to do and way to be?? Bloodlust? (Sorry, we’re wandering deep into Sigmeundville here.)
Be good, gang. Wingy
Don, by the way… far above, Chance brought out the ugly version of the word “communist” and tried to bonk me on the head with it. I could make you go read it, but instead… I’ll repeat that I am maybe better labeled as a “communalist”.
Whatever you would call a non-money-discrimination, everyone gets equal basic supplies-system like the military supply system. Whatever term you have for the military’s no-money-discrimination supply system, use that same label on me. That’s probably easiest, seeing you feel the need to attach a label/term to the type of person I am. Thanks.
WINGNUT-
I am a young lady, my lingo may not be as fancy as yours but here it goes.
Jesus doesn’t want self-suffiency but he doesn’t want a forced mandated system of sharing as in the one you dream of. We won’t call it socialism or communism since that scares me. However, we won’t refer to my system as capitalistic either since that is the “C” word in your book. I hope Jesus doesn’t get mad we are putting words in his mouth!
When Jesus said “Blessed are the poor, for yours are the Kingdom of God” and for the rich man to sell all his possessions, He was simply saying that being unshackled by things makes it easier to give one’s life to God, not that EVERYONE should do so, but only those who are valuing money and possessions up as a thing more important in life to them that God. Jesus was not concerned that money would lead to “moral decay” but to the separation of one from God, because with money, one can apparently sustain oneself and thus would have no need for God to sustain them. In doing so, they conveniently forget the fact that it is God who provided the money and possessions in the first place. After Jesus fed the crowd of 5000 in John 6:26, just after this incedent, we read “Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” If Jesus was wanting to teach the people to share their food with everyone, then why does He condemn the people the following day for trying to find Him simply so He can feed them again? The fact is that Jesus was teaching the people that He is the “bread of life” that when eaten, will keep a man from being hungry again.
Any system, no matter what you want to refer to it as, will fail as long as you have a centralized system without checks and balances to prevent corruption. If it is a system in which the government takes from the producers and gives to the lesser or non producers, it is doomed to fail. Jesus’ teachings are the exact opposite. Your excess is not taken FROM you against your will, but given BY you out of the love of your own heart to those in need and then only to those who cannot provide for themselves, unlike a “communtiy system” which gives to all, including the sluggards who don’t want to do anything for themselves.
I don’t know what kind of military experience you endured but that sure isn’t the same experience my husband and I had. We couldn’t run fast enough from that system of life. Your right when you say the military is “one” and that they always looks out for one another. I guess that explains why they like to swap husbands and wives and destroy marriages. I guess that explains why men come back from Iraq only to realize their best friend got their wife pregnant! I am assuming that is also learned behavior . I guess that also explains the suicide rates, the depression rates, and the growing number of soldiers who come back to muder innocent people because “in a soldiers words on myspace who is now in jail for murdering a mentally incompetent teenager” the military taught him what it feels like to be a cold-blooded murderer and he can’t wait to feel the blood on his hands again…..Your right it is learned behavior taught by your beloved US military. I agree this guy deserves a big hug and a lot of love because those around him saw that he was mentally insane and did nothing about it. He could have been stopped with some good old Christian love but in infantry that is not the group mentality that is taught. Instead he was picked on and ridiculed, now he is in military prison. Thankfully, my husband and I were able to maintain ourselves and our values and not let it influence us.
Basically, I think you were brainwashed with your high standards of how great the military way of life is and your blaming the wrong system. Your blame should be placed on corporatism, the fact that we are all wage slaves, the strict licensing and regulations that make it impossible for small business to thrive in our so called “free-market system” that you point your finger at. We haven’t had a free market in our country for nearly a century for one to even know what it is. How can it be a free market when we have been wage slaves to our centrally planed system of economics i.e. corporations and our gov’t for years???
I assume you are also one that sees your heart echo that of Obama’s and voted for him? I also assume that you haven’t read much of Revelations and will be a big part of the new world order in the coming days. Congratulations!!! Its happening and time will tell us how wonderful it is and if that is really what Jesus wanted?
WINGNUT-
I am a young lady, my lingo may not be as fancy as yours but here it goes.
Hi Bethany! Welcome to the discussions! I don’t consider my words anywhere near fancy, but thank you just the same.
Jesus doesn’t want self-suffiency but he doesn’t want a forced mandated system of sharing as in the one you dream of. We won’t call it socialism or communism since that scares me. However, we won’t refer to my system as capitalistic either since that is the “C” word in your book. I hope Jesus doesn’t get mad we are putting words in his mouth!
If ownership doesn’t exist, nobody is forced to share anything owned. It was never yours TO share. Also, are you scared of USA public libraries? They are socialisms. I’ve never been scared or forced at a public library.
When Jesus said “Blessed are the poor, for yours are the Kingdom of God” and for the rich man to sell all his possessions,
I tend to think neither God nor Jesus condone selling/owning whatsoever, but paint things up as ye desire.
He was simply saying that being unshackled by things makes it easier to give one’s life to God, not that EVERYONE should do so, but only those who are valuing money and possessions up as a thing more important in life to them that God. Jesus was not concerned that money would lead to “moral decay” but to the separation of one from God, because with money, one can apparently sustain oneself and thus would have no need for God to sustain them.
Yeah, that phenomenon of “breathing while you sleep” is certainly self-sustained via money, isn’t it? Not. How ’bout the body’s miraculous ability to heal itself, or know how to grow from child to adult, or how to make the 5 senses work, or how to hold molecules in the shape of body organs? Any self-sustained via money/labor going-on there? No. Notice the myriad of things sustained by life/God that are going on around you, and you will soon see that monetary self-sustaining is far from practiced by nature. No other living thing on the planet uses money, titles of ownership, invoices, timecards, advertising, or pricetags. All those things are not part of nature, they are part of capitalism…. a man-made thing. C’mon, friend. You can see this. Admit-to and own-up-to what you see.
In doing so, they conveniently forget the fact that it is God who provided the money and possessions in the first place.
No. Mankind invented money, not God. But yes, paper is made of wood, which is God-given. So, if you want to stretch the truth to fit your capitalism false idol worshipping, you’re certainly free to do that, but I suggest you don’t. God did not invent capitalism. The version running in the USA at the moment… was designed by the Free Masons and Illuminati. And yes, to do your truth-stretch, Free Masons and Illuminati are groups with people as members, and people are created by God/Earth creators.
After Jesus fed the crowd of 5000 in John 6:26, just after this incedent, we read “Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.” If Jesus was wanting to teach the people to share their food
“their” food? I take it you’re into ownership? Did you mean God’s food?
with everyone, then why does He condemn the people the following day for trying to find Him simply so He can feed them again? The fact is that Jesus was teaching the people that He is the “bread of life” that when eaten, will keep a man from being hungry again.
I’ll agree with that part… as there’s no mention of “owning” food in that part.
Any system, no matter what you want to refer to it as, will fail as long as you have a centralized system without checks and balances to prevent corruption.
I agree. And a good system of checks and balances… is to remove the tools by which the corruption operates, thus remove economies.
If it is a system in which the government takes from the producers
It sounds like you are saying that IF one produces, one owns. Keep in mind that all Earth materials… were made by Earth creators. So you can massage and “produce” using Earth materials all you like, but its still owned by God… because everything “produced” is made FROM God-owned materials…. which, against capitalism policies, belongs to all occupants of the Earth. “Takes from” sounds very ownership-ish and since there were no for sale signs or (en)titles of ownership on anything when mankind got to Earth, and since no other living or non-living thing on the planet uses capitalism, then you know what is truth and what is BS. God doesn’t condone ownership or selling. I don’t think you can buy stock in a church, either. But knowing the capitalists, someone has surely tried to turn a church into a business.
and gives to the lesser or non producers,
Again, why is there a lesser? Wheelchair-bound folks sometimes are non-producers. Are they to be allowed a fair share of God-owned food and other wellbeing? Yes. We ARE our brothers’ keeper… and our sisters’ keeper as well. Producing is a manipulation of God-owned materials… and such a manipulation does not cause the materials to suddenly be owned by something other-than the Earth creators. Mound up that sand castle till you’re silly, its still not YOUR sandcastle. It belongs to the occupants of the planet… like all sand. Mound up that sand into a silicone diode or transistor, and it STILL belongs to (is owned by) the planet’s creators, not the diode’s “producer”.
it is doomed to fail. Jesus’ teachings are the exact opposite. Your excess is not taken FROM you against your will, but given BY you out of the love of your own heart to those in need and then only to those who cannot provide for themselves, unlike a “communtiy system” which gives to all, including the sluggards who don’t want to do anything for themselves.
Ownership-condoning is just POURING out of your mouth and oozing from your pores. I suggest you do a rethink. Ownership is a type of hoarding and controlling… and thus… mighty anti-Christian. Paint it up as ye want, though. Make yourself happy, its all about you you you, when condoning, promoting, and joining… capitalism.
I don’t know what kind of military experience you endured but that sure isn’t the same experience my husband and I had. We couldn’t run fast enough from that system of life. Your right when you say the military is “one” and that they always looks out for one another. I guess that explains why they like to swap husbands and wives and destroy marriages.
Don’t blame God or the military… for you picking crappy life partners or delving into agreements that one of you couldn’t live up to. Well, go ahead and blame God or the military, but I suggest a rethink.
I guess that explains why men come back from Iraq only to realize their best friend got their wife pregnant! I am assuming that is also learned behavior . I guess that also explains the suicide rates, the depression rates, and the growing number of soldiers who come back to muder innocent people because “in a soldiers words on myspace who is now in jail for murdering a mentally incompetent teenager” the military taught him what it feels like to be a cold-blooded murderer and he can’t wait to feel the blood on his hands again…..Your right it is learned behavior taught by your beloved US military. I agree this guy deserves a big hug and a lot of love because those around him saw that he was mentally insane and did nothing about it. He could have been stopped with some good old Christian love but in infantry that is not the group mentality that is taught. Instead he was picked on and ridiculed, now he is in military prison. Thankfully, my husband and I were able to maintain ourselves and our values and not let it influence us.
What was that? I talk about the military supply system as being properly non-money-discriminating. What the heck are YOU talking about? It doesn’t sound like you’re talking about the supply system. Take your military hatred to a blogthread that bashes the military, ok? This thread is talking about survival/supply systems, not marriages.
Basically, I think you were brainwashed with your high standards of how great the military way of life is and your blaming the wrong system. Your blame should be placed on corporatism, the fact that we are all wage slaves, the strict licensing and regulations that make it impossible for small business to thrive in our so called “free-market system” that you point your finger at. We haven’t had a free market in our country for nearly a century for one to even know what it is. How can it be a free market when we have been wage slaves to our centrally planed system of economics i.e. corporations and our gov’t for years???
That’s capitalism for you. See why I despise it? Sure ya do.
I assume you are also one that sees your heart echo that of Obama’s and voted for him?
Ninja you beezwax, lady blue. But I think you could figure out that IF I voted, it was socialist party… not one of the capitalism parties. I don’t do herds.
I also assume that you haven’t read much of Revelations and will be a big part of the new world order in the coming days. Congratulations!!! Its happening and time will tell us how wonderful it is and if that is really what Jesus wanted?
You sound miffed. If you mean “the new world order” as mentioned near the pyramid scheme picture on the back of the USA dollar bill, no. I fight against that “new world order”. If you mean “heaven on Earth”, you can bet your bippy that I’m on-board that one, and thanks for the congrats. Congrats to you, too, and thanks for the response.
First off, we need to clarify some things. I have a wonderful, loving husband and that was not my personal experience. It was the people who surrounded us (we had no control over their influence because in the military you have no choice what unit you are assigned to). I do not hate the military. I hate the military lifestyle. I don’t think the system is fair, plain and simple. I have made some lifelong friends who are fantastic, strong human beings. I am very sorry it came off like I was hating military people.
Second of all, I am sorry for accusing you of being an Obama supporter and for supporting the new world order. I guess we may be more alike in some ways then we think.
I stayed up reading all last night and praying and I came to a realization. I am defending the wrong system and you are too. Instead of fighting about which system is going to produce this peaceful and unified life for all, maybe we should realize that we need to turn to Jesus to fulfill that hope and trust that he is the only one who can fulfill peace in the world.
This is one of the readings I read last night:
Before we study the harlot church, I think it would be of benefit to briefly understand some simple history of the institutional church. First, the word church means, “a called out assembly of people.” Sometimes we get the impression that a particular denomination or a building is the church. In a way that´s true. They are the institutional church, the visible organizational church in which the true church is located. Those souls who have truly heard the call of the Master are the “called out ones,” if they follow His voice.
The Christian church began on the day of Pentecost, when the followers of Jesus Christ were filled with the Holy Spirit. The first called out assembly of believers in Jerusalem was the result of Peter´s anointed preaching. His message, “Ye have crucified the Christ, therefore repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit,” was so Spirit inspired, that 3,000 souls were saved and added by the Lord. At that moment in time the institutional church and the spiritual church were one. Both were pure in God´s eyes. This is true only because all of the people assembled together were true believers who had repented of sin. They weren´t perfect, but they were pure.
The early Christians were so moved and transformed by the Holy Spirit that material possessions, which before had been their god, were shared with people in need. No one felt they owned anything. They were concerned more about others than themselves.
Acts 2:44-45,
44)”And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45)And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.”
Acts 4:32-35,
32)”And the multitude of those that believed were of one heart and of one soul; neither said any of them that any of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33)And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus; and great grace was upon them all. 34)Neither was there any among them that lacked; for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35)And laid them down at the apostles feet; and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.”
Can you see the oneness of the visible and spiritual church in these verses? Everyone was together and from free hearts were sharing and giving what they had. No one was forced to partake. They all were desirous of obeying the Lord´s commands, because of God´s love now in them. The people were touched with love and compassion for others. Their old selfish natures were purged and cleansed by the power of the Holy Spirit and the blood of the Lamb. They know what true repentance produced. They lived it.
As the body of believers grew in power and grace, so did the persecution from the Pharisees, the religious phonies of the day. The persecution became so intense, the believers fled to all parts of the countryside, spreading the Gospel of grace and love as they went. The apostles started assemblies all over the area due to their inspirational preaching.
As the years passed, the true followers continued to grow also in numbers, with purity, because of the uncompromised preaching of the Gospel. That kept the body pure and the world kept rejecting them. But then Satan´s tactics changed. Jude illustrates what happened, while Paul exposes the demonic forces behind it.
Jude 4,
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord god, and our Lord Jesus Christ.”
I Timothy 4:1,
“Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that, in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons…”
Unconverted converts began infiltrating the assembly of believers. They were people who had not committed their hearts to Jesus Christ. They wanted to go to Heaven, while still loving and lusting after the world. They used and abused the meaning of the grace of God in Christ, and turned it into a license to keep sinning. Sin produced no shame in these people who claimed to know Jesus. They said they knew Jesus, but were liars or antichrists. (I John 2:4-22). The organized church in America abounds with people in such spiritual darkness. We must warn them of their error if we say that we love them.
The pure assemblies were now becoming impure or mixed. A blending of the world and God´s word began. Sin began to take root again in the lives of some of the believers, except in those assemblies that tested and tried the doctrinal spirits. These remained pure. The heretics who attempted to infiltrate the churches left under the heat of God´s word from the mouth of God´s men. Upon hearing the Word, the heretics would either repent or run. If they ran, they would start assemblies of their own which were totally the church of antichrist, who continued to use the name of “Jesus.”
But the visible church, as a whole, which was called out of the world, was losing that identity. Counterfeits remained among the believers. The false teachers were allowed to roam among the sheep like wolves. These teachers could creep in unaware because the believers were falling asleep spiritually. They stopped reading the word of God diligently. The persecution was taking its toll. Compromise was slipping into the hearts of the people. Much of the writings of the New Testament address these issues head on.
These unconverted converts among the slumbering believers is what made the visible church impure. The overall spiritual makeup of the people is mixed, thus making the organized church a blend of harlots and brides. There were three types of people in the house of God: (1) The counterfeits. (2) The compromised. (3) The consecrated. To which of these groups do you belong?
My friend we are both wrong. It is not up to us to decide which system is best and more Christian. What we should be doing is praying for Jesus to bring this change instead of acting like intellectual know-it-alls who have the solutions to mankind’s problems. Jesus is the only one who will bring peace. I leave you with one more reading:
John 16:33,
“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
John 14:27,
“Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you; not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”
There is a mountain of difference between the peace of the world and the peace of the Lord, as He makes very clear to His disciples. The vain peace the world struggles for is based upon military and economic power or peace through strength. You don´t need a doctorate in history to see that.
The Bible is crystal clear that worldwide peace among men and nations will never last until the Prince of Peace returns. Jesus warns us that wars and rumors of wars will dictate history until He returns. Man´s attempts to bring peace are hopeless, like chasing the wind. For the world, even the religious men, resist the saving blood of Jesus Christ, therefore peace will be only a fanciful dream of PROUD men.
The world´s prophets of peace, dressed in sheep´s clothing, invariably are also the prophets of prosperity. For peace and prosperity are intertwined and inseparably linked. Listen to Paul´s searing denunciation of the New Testament prosperity preachers. Notice also his love for their souls, as tears stream down his face.
Philippians 3:18-21,
18)”For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ, 19)Whose end is destruction, whose God is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, and mind earthly things. 20)For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21)Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like his glorious body, according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
The things we long for are only in heaven. Heaven will not be on earth until Jesus returns.
Hi again Bethany! Wow, what a great post you have built, here. I’m seriously impressed and amazed. Thanks for showing us some of your true colors. They are beautiful colors, in my opinion.
First off, we need to clarify some things. I have a wonderful, loving husband and that was not my personal experience. It was the people who surrounded us (we had no control over their influence because in the military you have no choice what unit you are assigned to). I do not hate the military. I hate the military lifestyle. I don’t think the system is fair, plain and simple. I have made some lifelong friends who are fantastic, strong human beings. I am very sorry it came off like I was hating military people.
Nah, you didn’t come off as hating military PEOPLE, just the military system. I dislike many parts of the military system, as well. One of the things I dislike, you mentioned. Lack of say on issues. But the military has some rules that it has to play-by, that ties its hands in the egalitarian department. Lets see if I can illustrate.
First, the military just cannot tell “the troops” or the civilian sector… the whole story to most issues. That “whole story” is heavily classified data, and people are a blabby lot. Sometimes, or maybe often, telling “the people” the whole story (data gathered by special ops or black ops spyfolk) would put both the nation and the people… in high danger. The CIA and NSA just cannot tell everyone the whole story and the big picture… too dangerous to do so.
Second, decision by committee (egalitarian methods) takes lots and lots of time to gather and debate fairly. Often, the military needs to do its “movements” in a high-speed manner, and doesn’t have time to listen to objections or better ideas. There was an old humorous story that used to run-around in the military, and likely still does. When a commander tells a troop to jump, there’s only one “questioning” that should be done, and that’s “How high, sir/ma’m?”.
The military DOES allow “having a say” through its suggestion program, and I have personal experience that those suggestions often DO get read and weighed for wisdom. But the suggestion program won’t be used in operations where time is of the essence.
But again, as far as I’m concerned, you don’t need to apologize for anything, as I just mis-interpreted some things. Thanks for the clarification. There is no way we could know each others’ stances, attitudes, and personality… in a few posts of discussion. I’m honored that you’d take the time to straighten out my mis-interpreting of your stances and attitudes. That’s very cool of you.
Second of all, I am sorry for accusing you of being an Obama supporter and for supporting the new world order. I guess we may be more alike in some ways then we think.
Again, don’t sweat it… and you have nothing to apologize for. Its all part of the juicy fire of debating and discussing. I did some of that to the other posters here, and I did and do plenty of assuming and jumping to conclusions with every post I make. As all of you can tell, I’m not overly proficient in careful writing or reading. At best, I can maybe call myself mediocre at those things. I indeed DO think we are a bit alike. Your post moved me. You did some very applicable bible quotings… very nice stuff!
I stayed up reading all last night and praying and I came to a realization. I am defending the wrong system and you are too. Instead of fighting about which system is going to produce this peaceful and unified life for all, maybe we should realize that we need to turn to Jesus to fulfill that hope and trust that he is the only one who can fulfill peace in the world.
Well, I never thought that you and I, or that myself and other bloggers… are “fighting”. We’re actually mulling.
I generally speak against capitalism, the system. (I try to avoid bashing its members.) I avoid bashing “the greedy” because I believe no matter WHERE someone is at on the socio-economic pyramid scheme, they are actually “just” playing a role. That role is something that’s expected of them… by current social mores and Life Magazine “rules of being normal”. Many rich folk are rich because of traditions and social expectations, not necessarily because of gouging. If you notice, once folks are aboard the pyramid scheme (the Free Marketeers), fighting and blaming is commonplace. Its a tug-o-war. When one stands outside-of the pyramid scheme and views the battles going-on within, one realizes that there are no evil people or folks deserving blame, within it. They’re all “just” caught-up in a system of traditions and enjoyment addictions (cookieplate-chasing in the church playground). They are all fighting with each other… out of traditions and roles and old-gold and bloodlines. Once you look at the children in the giant toybox tug-o-war called capitalism from a farm-gramma (very loving) perspective… you see that it is indeed children tug-o-warring. And although you shake your head at their extreme stupidity, you still love them all. You DON’T love the “lemonade standing game” that they are playing, though. You also don’t like seeing them get addicted to enjoyments (sweets, meats, motorsports, sex, partying, superstardom, shopping, etc). When children (of God) get involved with that stuff, it HURTS a farm-gramma, not angers.
As you say, we tend to pray for them to learn the “don’t tug-o-war” lesson as soon and as harmlessly as possible. But meantime, we watch them do harm and blames upon each other, lots of one-ups-man-ship tricks and tactics going-on, and we see diminishing levels of loving one another and sharing. Its truly sad. We sharktank our 18 yr old kids into “out there” and we haven’t ever defined what “out there” or “in the real world” is supposed to be. We just say “get out there and blah blah blah”. Earlier posts, I mentioned the border between “out there” and “in here” and how parents kick their 18 yr old kids across that border. Once sharktanked, parenting policies reverse from love’n’share, to fight fight fight. Its a tradition and policy in a system that the caps are addicted-to. This policy reversal totally confuses our 18 yr olds… and makes them rebel.
But, as stewards of the planet… we must not just pray for changes, we must become Christian soldiers and DEMAND them. Christianity is a hands-on thing, and I’m going to rightly ruin the reputation of the system called capitalism. I’m busting it. I’m going for a cease and desist order against economies, capitalism, and pyramids. (pyramids - a labeled-as-ok servitude-infested slavery device that forces labor-exploitation upon SOME… while others bask in enjoyment addictions).
My friend we are both wrong.
About what? I am not wrong about the disgustingness of capitalism. I’ve got proof. So, capitalism is my target. Its goin’ down, and I’m going to do my best to hurry it along or just plain be the single cause of its demise. I don’t necessarily have time to show all capitalists… how stupid they were for joining the wretched thing. I’m going to take it down now, and the idiot competers can ask questions later. They (former capitalism lovers) won’t need to ask those questions, once they see how wise and loving the planet systems work… when using a single commune or tribe (along with cool computer monitoring of world survival-supply levels). When I get done, there will also be 24 hour-per-day “World Needs TV”, which is the worldwide “beg for volunteer labor help” TV channel(s) that keep Team World inventories (repositories) at safe stock-levels for all. Folks who volunteer labor for Team World stock-level “panicks”, are deemed national heroes and get put on TV and get a great name and reputation. Anyone doing great work for Team World… are mentors for the kids, too. Its pure love for Earthkind. Yum.
Speaking of yum, your verses and analysis of them, were yummy, Bethany. Thanks for them! We just have one major difference. You pray for change, and I physically yank down stupid pyramid schemes with my Christian police car. You use faith, and I use the Department of Justice and equality/servitude laws. I don’t necessarily fight to get the kingdom of heaven installed here on Earth. But if you notice my intent, I fight for something that’s one hell of a lot closer to heaven on Earth… than the thing we’re currently driving and peddling to our kids.
It is not up to us to decide which system is best and more Christian.
That depends upon whether you’ve been “ordained” to do a task for God, or not. Activists tend to have a non-ignorable fire burning in their souls. That fire often starts via a person investigating/discovering a widely-unknown truth or phenomenon, and the person’s need to expose that truth. If/when you get that fire, you will do more than just pray. I don’t mean to trivialize the act of praying, though. I think its every bit as powerful as action. I use both.
What we should be doing is praying for
And striving/activating-for… (imho)
Jesus to bring this change instead of acting like intellectual know-it-alls who have the solutions to mankind’s problems. Jesus is the only one who will bring peace.
The solutions are in the Bible. One needs only to live one’s life even SLIGHTLY within the policies of the Bible, and then we, as Earth custodians, WILL bring about heaven on Earth. As soon as we become a loving tribe, THAT’s when God will feel the Earth is safe enough to allow Jesus to revisit. Right now, the Earth is too fighty and bordered… for any second coming to be allowed. (my feeble opinion)
Thanks for the clarifications and words, Bethany. Keep praying. Meantime, I’m going to keep exposing and discussing the atrocious aspects of the current pyramidical survival/supply system… called capitalism. It starves many many people per year on MY planet, and its going to stop. I’m continuing “hands on” methods… by attempting to show “yay US, yay America” capitalists… the terrible system that they are condoning, promoting, joining, and railroading upon their kids. Take care, everyone!
Good luck with that! You are such a wonderful person. I am sure you will bring about great change in the world! While you yank down systems with your “Christian police car,” I will maintain peace within myself, lead by example, and have faith that only Jesus can bring about such change rather then your feeble opinion that earth has to safe enough to allow Jesus to visit. I don’t know what part of the Bible you read but thats not what it says in Revelations. You can respond if you like but I will not take any more time out of my life to join in your game. I think you are a deeply disturbed person and I don’t want to partake in your maddness.
Well, it is nice to see several people thinking about what sort of society they would like to live in and talking about it here. You guys are posting a bit too fast for me to keep up, though. I find that it is very helpful to wait at least a day before writing a response in an online debate. It gives you a little while to avoid an emotional reaction and instead think about what the other person said, and then you can make a reasoned response. Admittedly, that can be difficult when you find someone’s opinions extreme, offensive, or even outright delusional. Just keep in mind that it is just their opinion, and by itself can do you no harm.
That being said, I’d like to address one particular thing that Wingnut said. I’m so glad you wrote this:
“First, the military just cannot tell “the troops” or the civilian sector… the whole story to most issues. That “whole story” is heavily classified data, and people are a blabby lot. Sometimes, or maybe often, telling “the people” the whole story (data gathered by special ops or black ops spyfolk) would put both the nation and the people… in high danger. The CIA and NSA just cannot tell everyone the whole story and the big picture… too dangerous to do so.
Second, decision by committee (egalitarian methods) takes lots and lots of time to gather and debate fairly. Often, the military needs to do its “movements” in a high-speed manner, and doesn’t have time to listen to objections or better ideas. There was an old humorous story that used to run-around in the military, and likely still does. When a commander tells a troop to jump, there’s only one “questioning” that should be done, and that’s “How high, sir/ma’m?”. ”
I was often confused by your reference to the military as your model system. I thought you had some idealized version of how members take care of each other in a voluntary fashion. Some of the language you used (lovey, huggy, share, etc.) caused me to think that you were living in a fantasy world where a true communist (or “communalist” if you prefer) society was possible; where each citizen worked for the good of the whole through his own free will and freely surrendered his own possessions (by possessions I mean things he has the decision authority on how they are used). Now, I see that I was mistaken.
You want to entrust the security and welfare of all citizens to a secretive political elite that has a monopoly on the use of force. Excellent! Now we can have a discussion from a common perspective, because this is not a new idea. Neither is it an unreasonable one. In fact, it is the Popular Socialism that I described above in the original article.
Now, I suspect that you will accuse me of putting words in your mouth or misunderstanding your position. However, I think if apply some self-analysis to your writings above, you might agree that this is what you are saying.
You want people who don’t cooperate in your system (who insist that they own something for instance) to be put into “huggy, lovey” prison where they will be brainwashed to behave as the poltical elite sees fit. I assure you, as soon as someone physically resists, those prisons will be much less “huggy” and much more “line you up against a wall and shooty.”
The power to apply force and to decide where resources go guarantees that a political elite will rule your society. Please go read Animal Farm if you have not done so. Granted, it is just metaphorical fiction, but it simply and accurately describes the failure of every effort to create a system similar to yours.
Now, I have already addressed the criticisms of socialism in the original article and they fully apply to your system. First, once you give the state that much power, it will be fought over and manipulated by special interests to recieve a larger portion of the production pie. Second, you are assuming that a small group of intellectuals (or elders as you say) have the capability of running such a huge and complex system from the top down. I argue that it is likely that they do not. And finally, I don’t think special recognition on the TV would get people to sacrifice and strive for personal success, but hey, I suppose that one is in the realm of possibility.
Rather than recap the whole article in full, allow me to present another metaphor to describe the way I see the system you have presented here. It seems to me that you view people as equivalent to dairy cows. Dairy cows consume and they produce. You want someone to come in and make sure that all of the cows are getting their fair share of grass, water and shade. Of course, that someone is our infamous political elite. You hope that these wise and selfless individuals will be able to make sure that we all live like the California Milk cows on TV; fat, happy and content.
I believe that such a system is destined to end up just as real dairy farms do; with cows standing shoulder to shoulder in mud and their own feces, attached to machines that suck all of the production that was intended for thier own young into vast collection vats that the cows will never see again. Those cows that refuse to live this way and rebel are called deranged and given a quick bullet to the brain (if they are lucky).
Even if someone was able to convince me that they would be able to make sure that I would be a fat, content cow wandering around in a fenced-in pasture, I would resist. I don’t want to be fenced in against my will. I want to cooperate in society as a free man. If I want to quit my job and go hiking across the country, I can. If I want to go back to school and try to start a new career, I can. I can say what I want. I can read and write what I want. I can worship (or not) in any way I think fit. I can raise my children to believe in the ideals I believe in, but they, in turn, are free to reject those ideals when presented with others.
In your society, all of those things are dangerous to the power and security of the poltical elite and will be crushed without a second thought.
The good news for you is that no action is required on your part to bring your ideas to fruition in our world. Our government has been taking steps to realize your dream for a century. Capitalism is already on its last legs! Congratulations. I have a feeling, though, that you and many others may regret its demise before the end.
Well, it is nice to see several people thinking about what sort of society they would like to live in and talking about it here. You guys are posting a bit too fast for me to keep up, though. I find that it is very helpful to wait at least a day before writing a response in an online debate. It gives you a little while to avoid an emotional reaction and instead think about what the other person said, and then you can make a reasoned response. Admittedly, that can be difficult when you find someone’s opinions extreme, offensive, or even outright delusional.
Hi Chance. Yes, we all know that we’re free to post in any way we see fit.
Just keep in mind that it is just their opinion, and by itself can do you no harm.
Yes, we’re all free to think about other’s posts in any way we see fit. Nothing I say or propose will do more harm to you… than capitalism is already harming and controlling you.
I was often confused by your reference to the military as your model system. I thought you had some idealized version of how members take care of each other in a voluntary fashion. Some of the language you used (lovey, huggy, share, etc.) caused me to think that you were living in a fantasy world where a true communist (or “communalist” if you prefer) society was possible; where each citizen worked for the good of the whole through his own free will and freely surrendered his own possessions (by possessions I mean things he has the decision authority on how they are used). Now, I see that I was mistaken.
Yep, you were mistaken about surrendering possession of God-owned things. You never possessed them in the first place. By possessing, did you mean harboring something in your God-owned house or garage? Possession/ownership/control is just a anti-Christian belief, backed by police guns. Everything belongs to Earthkind, whether you are “possessing” it, holding it, storing it, or balancing it on your noses. “Possessing” is a type of hoarding. Now if you would have said “using” it, we’d open up a whole new avenue of open-minded discussion. Needless to say, I’m pretty discouraged about the current streak of close-mindedness flying around in this blog. Some serious unfairness.
You want to entrust the security and welfare of all citizens to a secretive political elite that has a monopoly on the use of force. Excellent! Now we can have a discussion from a common perspective, because this is not a new idea. Neither is it an unreasonable one. In fact, it is the Popular Socialism that I described above in the original article.
Now where is this “secretive political elite” kabol coming from? Yes, if your laws and enforcment of those laws… allow such secret groups in your society, you’re in trouble. Its what’s happening now, via capitalism. True egalitarian systems don’t have secret kabols…. but they do have transparent sub-teams and specialty teams. But they are transparent, and allow suggestions and ideas from anyone. Think NASA fault tree software. All issues and comnments about issues… are addressed. (No, not in wartime ops, which would be gone anyway).
Now, I suspect that you will accuse me of putting words in your mouth or misunderstanding your position. However, I think if apply some self-analysis to your writings above, you might agree that this is what you are saying.
You want people who don’t cooperate in your system (who insist that they own something for instance) to be put into “huggy, lovey” prison where they will be brainwashed to behave
No, brainwashing is not used. “Behave” is a newly-heavily-scrutinized phenomenon, as well as “do as you’re told”. The best way is to convince folks… is via proving tem-prefered policies to be wise and loving. That’s not brainwashing, that’s proving.
as the poltical elite sees fit.
No, not “sees fit”. Wise and loving, filled with logic. Fully weighed for intelligence (a term which, along with “right”, “good”, “best”, are redefined based-up some brand new criteria). No “sees fit” is allowed from these so called secret groups that you fear. We’re very transparent and there’s a billion tattletales around, pointing out every unfairness seen. Everyone is a fairness cop and storyteller. (regulations-quoters) Just like the military. Regulations-quoting keeps the troops self-policed.
I assure you, as soon as someone physically resists, those prisons will be much less “huggy” and much more “line you up against a wall and shooty.”
Yes, they will be more physically-strict if you and your society let them be, as you have currently done. In my dream, the days of forcing are done. We only ask folks to do things, not force. We must treat adults…. as gentle as children. Stay within current or kinder… child-beating standards… for all adults, too. Got this?
The power to apply force and to decide where resources go guarantees that a political elite will rule your society.
No. Proven logic and intelligence rules, not some political group. Chance, maybe you should exercise your “sit back and think before you post” idea… a bit more depthfully.
(Ok, sorry, that was rather mean.)
Please go read Animal Farm if you have not done so. Granted, it is just metaphorical fiction, but it simply and accurately describes the failure of every effort to create a system similar to yours.
Someone bought Animal Farm for me, as a gift. I read the first three pages and nearly yawned to death.
Now, I have already addressed the criticisms of socialism in the original article and they fully apply to your system.
oooookay.
First, once you give the state
I asked you before who “state” was. Answer please. Do you mean “Team World”?
that much power, it will be fought over and manipulated by special interests to recieve a larger portion of the production pie.
Remember, nobody would be fighting over money/power anymore, so there’s much less “fought over” going on, in general. But there’s MUCH debating and weighing, happening. These mentors/elders would not be capitalists… so the fighting wouldn’t be as prevelent as it is within capitalism. You don’t see a Indian tribal chief or elder, battling with their young over power. There is instead a respect for tenure. An earned respect… gotten from listening to the wisdom and experience in the words of the elders. Elders are surperheroes…because they know so much and tell such excellent stories. There’d be gruesome debates, though. There’d be lots of folks feeding the “issue management”" software… data during, too. all pertinent ideas and comments, get weighed.
Second, you are assuming that a small group of intellectuals (or elders as you say) have the capability of running such a huge and complex system from the top down.
Top-down is a hierarchical mentality. Think level grounds and equality, not “ruling” or anything altitude-altered. You might be too entrenched in fighting-over Earth materials already, Chance. You might not be able to understand this type of thinking…. because you are too far gone in the opposite direction, already.
I argue that it is likely that they do not. And finally, I don’t think special recognition on the TV would get people to sacrifice and strive for personal success, but hey, I suppose that one is in the realm of possibility.
Thanks for your flexibility and open-mindedness.
Rather than recap the whole article in full, allow me to present another metaphor to describe the way I see the system you have presented here. It seems to me that you view people as equivalent to dairy cows. Dairy cows consume and they produce. You want someone to come in and make sure that all of the cows are getting their fair share of grass, water and shade. Of course, that someone is our infamous political elite. You hope that these wise and selfless individuals will be able to make sure that we all live like the California Milk cows on TV; fat, happy and content.
It all depends upon what kind of farmer you are. Do you force your cows around, clamp their necks in pipes, prod them with electricity, things like that? If so, you’ve just rebuilt capitalism. If you’re a kind farmer, and ask your cows to cooperate with you, and not force those who choose not-to do your biddings and whims… than you are a farmer of the more-proper kind. You are a cow-lover.
In your society, all of those things are dangerous to the power and security of the poltical elite and will be crushed without a second thought.
Yes, if you (your chosen society style) allows this so-called “political elite” to exist (if you hand-over your power and freedom of choice, to someone else)… you are definitely in for trouble. When doing Team World commune, sections of the team are specialized in management and law enforcement, but they are not more or less powerful than the courts or an individual or another Team World sub-team. Everything is flat. Nothing “orders” anything. Its all “highly-suggests” instead, and yes, it all counts-on people’s free will to help the team cause. Folks will be asked to help. There will be lethargic bad-apples who won’t help… but… love them anyway. Show them why and how their help is needed, and the good things that come from barnraising and potluck social mores. Prove it to be the right and proper, and most efficient, way to be. As far as product (tool) re-useability, repairability, and non-over-production, there is nothing even in the ballpark… of communes. Ask the Quakers and the like. Their tools last for many generations. Capitalism-built tools last a week.
The good news for you is that no action is required on your part to bring your ideas to fruition in our world.
Oh really? There’s a crapload of “yay America” to get past… before we can get most capitalists to even take a basic look at the design of their false-idol. Look at the rejection levels I get in here, just trying to get the commonfolk to examine capitalism. The conversation got railroaded-over-to “what do we replace it with”, of course. I asked that the “what do we replace it with” conversation stay separated from “why capitalism sucks terribly”, but it didn’t. Yes, you/we will have to implement a socialism here on Earth… whether the capitalists like it or not, and no matter what I try to convince the bloggers-of. And yes, I don’t need to help the pyramid scheme fall, because all pyramids fall on their own. Unfortunately, we just starved another 10 million children this year, while we stood around waiting for someone to tell us to start building our commune.
Our government has been taking steps to realize your dream for a century. Capitalism is already on its last legs! Congratulations. I have a feeling, though, that you and many others may regret its demise before the end.
Maybe, but… Christians have to try for kindness, fairness, equality, and love. Its what we do. Best regards!
Hey Chance… I totally missed your definition of “possessions” in that one paragraph. Sorry about that. For ease of discussion, lets use “custodianship” (of a tool or toy), if you’d please.
Now, lets expand upon “the decision authority on how they are used”. Um, that’s rough water, Chance. Like the military, and using a shovel as an example, there is a “team wisdom” regulation, or maybe call it “words of experience from shovel-expert elders”… that governs how a shovel should be properly used. It “the manual” for “how to use a shovel”. So, even if you were currently the user (possessor) of the shovel (the most recent user, so its stored at your location), you don’t have the authority to control others’ usage of said shovel. Shovel usage is a “in the manual” thing. But you would have the power to submit an addendum-attempt to the manual, if wanted. Also, if you were still using the shovel at/near the time when another came to get it from you for their usage, the gang at inventory control will try to find an unused shovel for the requisitioner, and not re-allocate the one you are using. Dispersion of supplies is an art, and computer help tons.
Lets do the jet boat. IF… you were a member of Team Entertainment, and a member of Team Jetboats within that, then you are likely a trained jetboat custodian (mechanic, safety officer, rider-trainer, driver-trainer, corrosion control, scheduling allocator). You will proudly wear the colors of Team Jetboat… because… the mankind-invented machine called a jetboat… has such excellent abilities to bring smiles to gloomy faces. Like helicopters and planes, they are a highly-treasured and highly-cherished, super-nice, super-fun, rec-services toy. Team Jetboat folks do their super-best, to make sure that any human on the planet who longs for a ride or drive of a jetboat… gets to have that opportunity become open to them. THAT… is the ultimate goal of role-model jetboat custodians. CAN a capitalist… “relax” ownership of “their” (the) currently-owned jetboat… for such a nobel and honorable cause? I think so. Jetboat owners seem to be pretty cool people, and seem to like taking people for rides and causing smiles. I have faith in mankind. :/
Ok, sorry for missing your definition of “possession” during my first reading. Party on.
Hi again. Geez, sorry I’m so yappy today, but I see another gray area that could be talked-out. This is based around laws and forcing and enforcing.
In the system of my dreams, forcing IS used to “restrict” a person from destroying things and hurting folks who/which are deemed “valuable” to Team World “elders” and wisdom. Destructive folks will be kept-from harming valuables… and it might indeed require a kind of force to accomplish. Restrictive only, please. No punishing or retaliating, is my hope.
Ok, but, here we go. In the true spirit of total freedom, those who like/love destroying things… should have every right to do so (although we should watch-over/care-for them regarding addictions and obsessions). This is where “waivers” come into play… another common military phenomenon.
Thus, we, as “care for all” Team World members, should try to facilitate a way that this destruction-lover, gets to have that opportunity open to them. We need to build a “work-around”. We build a “Team Destruction” pit, a division of Team Entertainment. We stock this former gravel pit with custodians and manuals for explosives, monster-truck-crushing, bearing-press smashing, wrecking-ball usage, and we try to provide some fun things for people to destroy. (Boys/men seem to love destroying things, especially dainty stuff.)
By letting Team World garbage-control folks… decide what is allocated to the destruction pit… it actually helps Team World in the materials-salvage department.
But to get to the point, physical force will likely need to be used… to “restrict” those who consistently want to destroy Team World valuables. Punishment FOR those actions, should be teachy, not harming or threatening, in my opinion. In determining guilt of any infraction, the underlying cause must be scrutinized… to make sure no fear or duress is causing the action.
I guess that’s all I have, but we’ll see.
Peace.
I posted this on another article, but I thought I’d put it here, too, just in case somebody actually reads past all of wingnut’s posts:
Here are some words of wisdom to those who would like to blame free market capitalism for our current troubles:
“Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven’t had capitalism. A system of capitalism presumes sound money, not a fiat currency manipulated by a central bank. It’s not capitalism when the system is plagued with incomprehensible rules regarding mergers, acquisitions, and stock sales, along with wage controls, price controls, protectionism, corporate subsidies, international management of trade, complex and punishing corporate taxes, privileged government contracts to the military industrial complex, and foreign policy controlled by corporate interests and overseas investments. Add to this centralized federal mismanagement of farming, education, medicine, insurance, banking and welfare. That is not capitalism!
To condemn free market capitalism for anything going on today makes no sense. There is no evidence that capitalism even exists today. We are deeply involved in an interventionist-planned economy that allows major benefits to accrue to the politically connected of both political spectrums. One may condemn the fraud and the current system, but it must be called by its proper names: Keynesian inflationism, interventionism, and corporatism.”
- Ron Paul, Congressional Record, US House of Representatives, 2002
Wingnut, I know this won’t do much for you as you reject all theories of economics man has ever devised, but perhaps you can at least name the responsible party in your forthcoming lawsuit.
In the original article I stated the following as a weakness of socialism.
“The critics’ final point is that as the State develops more power to distribute Wealth, it becomes a greater target of manipulation. Powerful individuals, special interest groups and even foreign governments will lobby for their share of the loot. The critics believe that the more loot that is at stake the more determined these interests will be to influence the State.”
- Chance Litton (me), Capitalism vs. Socialism, 2008
Here is the same idea in the words of a wiser man:
Under the predominance of interventionist ideas, a political career is open only to men who identify themselves with the interest of a pressure group… Service to the short-term interests of a pressure group is not conducive to the development of those qualities which make a great statesman. Statesmanship is invariably long-run policy; pressure groups do not bother about the long run.”
- Ludwig von Mises, Human Action, Scholar’s Edition (Auburn, Alabama: Ludwig von Mises Institute, 1998), p. 866
Chance, how come you refuse to answer when asked WHO is “state”, and how come you refuse to show me a comparison between it, and “Team World” (common team)?
Maybe you were right from day one, Chance. Maybe no reasonable debate can happen here.
Responsible party in an upcoming lawsuit? Its a cease and desist order against a system, not an individual, hello? The creators of the USA version of capitalism… are long-ago dead of old age. Don’t you think that the capitalists have done enough lynching of each other over money and ownership of un-own-able things? Its time to stop fighting with each other, and just escape the SYSTEM that condones and promotes fighting with each other. Why is this so hard for you to visualize? Why are you against love? Did something damage you?
Wingy
Wingnut, you said:
“Chance, how come you refuse to answer when asked WHO is “state”, and how come you refuse to show me a comparison between it, and “Team World” (common team)?”
I answered this in the original article and I’ve answered it over and over again as you’ve repeated your series of tired questions. Just in case you are not bothering to read my posts, I’ll answer it once again. I quote me: “…the State… is synonymous with the political elite. This can include any individual or group that has that capacity to make policy at a national level. A dictator, a hereditary or selected oligarchy, or elected officials are among the persons who can embody the State.” Your council of elders or generals (a selected oligarchy) or whoever runs your new system that you don’t want to talk about are the state.
As far as your lawsuit goes, I was suggesting to you that capitalism is not to blame for the state of our nation today because we in fact do not live in a capitalist system. I identified our current system for you to villify, not any individual.
You said:
“Maybe you were right from day one, Chance. Maybe no reasonable debate can happen here… Why are you against love? Did something damage you?”
These personal attacks are not fair. I’ve allowed you to post anything you would like to say and responded to all of your points in a reasonable manner. I’ve repeated my answers to your repetitive series of questions about the state, ownership, and more, while you have not rebutted many of my answers. For example:
Your question: “What’s worse than 10 million dead children?”
my answer: “20 million dead children.”
Your response: repeat some other question I’ve already answered.
Your question: “Why can’t we just talk about capitalism and not what I want to replace it with?”
my answer: “Because no system is perfect and to determine its value it must be compared to another system that is possible and in which people would be better off.” - paraphrased.
Your response: repeat some other question I’ve already answered.
I’ve allowed you to transform an article about the two systems our nation realistically has a chance of following into a philosophical discussion about a fantastical concept.
I have endeavored to have a friendly and stimulating conversation with you, which I suspect is not the reception you typically receive in response to your trolling. I have made one disparaging comment concerning your reasoning. I made it directly after your first post that was filled with rambling stream-of-consciousness writing, overly emotional vocabulary and the online equivalent of shouting (all caps and exclamation points). Since that time, I have criticized only your ideas and read with interest your criticism of mine. Both of our commentaries were largely free of personal attacks and questioning of our motivations until recently.
And yes, I use the word allow, because I have not relinquished my right of ownership of this site and I could have refused or removed your posts at any time. In fact, unless you have something new and reasonable to say, I may exercise that right in the immediate future. I’m not interested in any further he-said-she-said debate.
To WINGNUT
In the video, Mr. Friedman meditates on greed and virtue. Donahue asks: “When you see around the globe the mal-distribution of wealth, the desperate plight of millions of people in undeveloped countries when you see the greed and the concentration of power, did you ever have a moment of doubt about capitalism and whether greed is a good idea to run on?”
Milton Friedman replies:
“What is greed? Of course none of us are greedy; it’s only
the other fellow who’s greedy. The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests. In the only cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty you’re talking about they have had capitalism and largely free trade. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear: that there is no alternative way SO FAR discovered of improving the lot of the ordinary people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by a free enterprise system.”~Milton Friedman
Later, when asked by Mr. Donahue whether capitalism rewards virtue, Friedman says, “Is it really true that political self-interest is nobler somehow than economic self-interest?Just tell me where in the world you’re going to find these angels who are going to organize society for us? I don’t even trust you to do that!”
Great vid on youtube, highly suggest watching Milton Friedman in debates. You replace the word “state” with “team world”. Just like Hillary Clinton replacing the word “state” with “village”. so what happens when you refuse to embrace the hug of the “village”? the “elders”? what happens when you don’t want to be a team player? who are these “angels” thats going to set the rules? to enforce? individuals are going to have their own version on what the “rules” are going to be. That means a group is going to be formed to come up with a consensus. If they don’t want an “elite” group then you have to rely on the majority vote of the population. MOB RULE. This is the fundamental problem with socialism. It’s against individual freedom. Here’s some quotes from individuals that don’t believe in individualism…except for themselves.
“Comrades! We must abolish the cult of the individual decisively, once and for all.” [Nikita Khrushchev , February 25, 1956 20th Congress of the Communist Party]
“We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society.” [Hillary Clinton, 1993]
There is the great, silent, continuous struggle: the struggle between the State and the Individual; between the State which demands and the individual who attempts to evade such demands. Because the individual, left to himself, unless he be a saint or hero, always refuses to pay taxes, obey laws, or go to war. [Benito Mussolini]
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More Boortz: Neal’s Favorite Quotes
“Politicians never accuse you of ‘greed’ for wanting other people’s money — only for wanting to keep your own money.” [Joseph Sobran]
These quotes — gathered from various sources around the net and from newspapers, should open a few eyes on what lies at the core of the liberal thought process. If you have any submissions you would like to add to the page, send them on!
“America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance — and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way.” [Ayn Rand]
GOVERNMENT
“Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.” [Ask Barbra Streisand who the hell said this. I don't know. I think it was Don Knotts.]
“In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other.” [Voltaire]
The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. [H.L. Mencken]
The only good bureaucrat is one with a pistol at his head. Put it in his hand and it’s good-by to the Bill of Rights. [H.L. Mencken]
“The government consists of a gang of men exactly like you and me. They have, taking one with another, no special talent for the business of government; they have only a talent for getting and holding office. Their principal device to that end is to search out groups who pant and pine for something they can’t get and to promise to give it to them. Nine times out of ten that promise is worth nothing. The tenth time is made good by looting A to satisfy B. In other words, government is a broker in pillage, and every election is sort of an advance auction sale of stolen goods.”[H. L. Mencken]
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” [H. L. Mencken]
Does “Global Warming” come to mind? — oh, and Hillary says there is a “hidden” child care crisis. Could she have meant to say “imaginary” child care crisis?
“I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution or that have failed their purpose, or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is “needed” before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should later be attacked for neglecting my constituents “interests, ” I shall reply that I was informed that their main interest is liberty and that in that cause I am doing the very best I can.” [Barry Goldwater]
“In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, ‘Make us your slaves, but feed us.’” [Dosteovsky's 'Grand Inquisitor']
This is a perfect illustration of the current state of political affairs in America.
“If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.” [Samuel Adams]
HONESTY IN GOVERNMENT
Teddy Roosevelt said this on May 12, 1900 .. .while he was still governor of New York. Too bad we don’t have more people who feel this way today.
“We can afford to differ on the currency, the tariff, and foreign policy; but we cannot afford to differ on the question of honesty if we expect our republic permanently to endure …
“Honesty is not so much a credit as an absolute prerequisite to efficient service to the public. Unless a man is honest, we have no right to keep him in public life; it matters not how brilliant his capacity
“The weakling and the coward cannot be saved by honesty alone; but without honesty, the brave and able man is merely a civic wild beast who should be hunted down by every lover of righteousness.
“No man who is corrupt, no man who condones corruption in others, can possibly do his duty by the community…
“‘Liar’ is just as ugly a word as ‘thief,’ because it implies the presence of just as ugly a sin in one case as in the other. If a man lies under oath or procures the lie of another under oath, if he perjures himself or suborns perjury, he is guilty under the statute law.
“Under the higher law, under the great law of morality and righteousness, he is precisely as guilty if, instead of lying in a court, he lies in a newspaper or on the stump; and in all probability, the evil effects of his conduct are infinitely more widespread and more pernicious.”
HYPHENATED AMERICANISM
“There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism. The one absolutely certain way of bringing this nation to runin, of preventing all possibility of its continuing to be a nation of all, would be to permit it to become a tangle of squabbling nationalities.” [Teddy Roosevelt in a speech before the Knights of Columbus]
WHY I THINK VOTING SHOULD BE RESTRICTED
This is one of my favorites. From Alexander Tyler. No, he wasn’t writing about the United States. This quote is well over one hundred years old. Tyler was writing about the fall of the Athenian Republic.
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world’s great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage.”
INDIVIDUALISM
“The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood.” [Adolph Hitler, quoted in Hitler, A Study in Tyranny, by Alan Bullock (Harper Collins, NY)]
“It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole … that above all the unity of a nation’s spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. …. This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture …. we understand only the individual’s capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man.” [Adolph Hitler, 1933]
“All our lives we fought against exalting the individual, against the elevation of the single person, and long ago we were over and done with the business of a hero, and here it comes up again: the glorification of one personality. This is not good at all.” [Vladimir Lenin, as quoted in Not by Politics Alone]
“The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute for them the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood.” [Adolph Hitler, quoted in Hitler, A Study in Tyranny, by Alan Bullock (Harper Collins, NY)]
“make individualism disappear from the nation!”, “criminal to think of individuals!”~Che Guevara
“All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.” ~Benito Mussolini
“Individualism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension. It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads. It is an extremely bad tendency.”~Mao Zedong
Alex, thanks for the excellent post, and yes, I understand the trouble with keeping individualism when on a team with attempted common goals. There’s work-arounds. Waivers. No matter what, you can’t break laws, just like now. But there’s a new law, and its very strict. Fairness/equality. The shuttle pilot and the bum, get the same access to wellbeing and treats. The anti-capitalist (like me), gets to eat and have a roof, too. We also get to have a radio and television station, and we get to create sanctuaries where Christians can hide from capitalism’s taxations (cost of living/remaining-alive). People LIKE to participate, and being a bum is NOT the “nature” of a human. Treehouse teaming is the nature of a human. We are social animals, and like to feel integral and useful… by nature. Trust in mankind. We all LIKE to adopt and care for things… or at least most of us do. For those who don’t, there’s waivers. Nothing is forced, except laws. There’d be more freedom than with capitalism… which forces 18 yr olds to join a competer’s religion… or starve. You’d also see no “pay up or lose your house” in MY method. You sure see plenty of that in capitalism. In general, capitalism is PACKED with “ordering” and “do it or else” extortion. Disgusting. We all know it. Lets admit it. Servitude should have been illegal long ago. Its just a renamed slavery. Lets fix it. No more monetary discrimination and no more forsaking/negligent homicide… especially in Africa. WHO says 20000 kids under 5 die per day from lack of basic survival supplies, why others own multiple yachts and Learjets. Imperialism. Pyramiding. Sick. I don’t care WHAT other system you try, lets just get a FAIR one and stop with the rat-racing and enjoyment addictions. In my neighborhood, its called Christianity… and its all about potlucks, barnraisings, and NO money or demanding of each other (billings/bullets). Monetary discrimination is appalling… and we all know it.
Taking a look at “today’s america”, which is completely different than our fore-fathers envisioned is telling this story.
(Trying not to bash Obama) Why do his policies focus on Health Care, Education, and Energy? Simply put, you control that, you control the people (to a degree). If you only teach Democratic (Marxist) ways, you get a system of “Rule of Man”. If you control Health Care - you get rationing, which means, if they can target one individual, they can target you next. If you control Energy, well you can control anything that moves. Typically, this results in increased taxes and power (government).
My opinion is simple:
Free Markets (Yes, I mean Free Markets).
Term Limits. Let no one control for too long.
Remove Capital Gains Tax. This will keep American money in America.
Remove Subsidies. Why do we prop up a failing “product”, let the money go to something that works instead. oh, wait, those “special interest groups” keep us in office. right?
Remove Social Security, Medicaid, Income Tax. Slash government down to the minimalist “group/tribe” the fore-fathers envisioned, which was “To keep the people safe from other ‘Nations’.” Let the people decide how they want their life, without the need of “Nanny-State” politics. Governments=power grab.
Nice article Chance. Well written, and concise.
Wingnut:
Homesteading is still an option. I actually work with a gentleman who is taking him and his family to Africa where he will live off the earth. Him and his wife are looking forward to teaching their kids real values and skills to be self-sufficient. I applaud that man. To me, that is a strong individual/family.
whoa. cool.
debate dudes! lol ( im 13 dont judge me on my lang.)
just wanted to say Thanks so much! u totally saved my
butt for a debate i got 2 do in history class! ( capitalism
v.s. socialism ) thanks mucho!~